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Wendy: So I was IG stalking you, and I saw that you have several posts up about the importance of brushing your teeth before you go to bed. And we just wrapped up a relationship series.

And so I have a question that kind of integrates both relationships and dental hygiene. Is it a deal breaker for you? if your partner doesn't wanna brush before bed. For me,

Dr. Marie: absolutely . Yes. Big deal breaker for me. I can't speak for others , but it's for me now. One of the reasons is because, one, it's critical for your dental health to brush your teeth before bed.

You wanna make sure you get rid of all the stuff that is between your teeth in your mouth, on your teeth as you've gone through the day. And that. Not doing that can actually increase your rate of cavities and decay and all types of dental issues. So that's dental standpoint. The other is that when you don't brush your teeth before bed, you are going to have really, really bad morning breath.

You can actually almost eliminate morning breath by making sure you brush thoroughly loss. Clean your tongue and use an antiseptic mouthwash before you go to sleep. So that is a huge aid in preventing these types of issues.

Jess: Okay, that's very helpful. Um, you said antiseptic mouthwash, that is a question we have later on, but since we're on the topic, what does that mean and what are your thoughts on mouthwash?

Dr. Marie: Okay, so, um, an antiseptic mouthwash is a mouthwash that kills germs and the germs that prevent, that build up in your mouth that. , um, flat breath plaque, gum disease. So I am a fan of one. I, uh, actually do some work with, uh, one of the antiseptic brands. And so I guess I do have some bias, but I have bias because of the research behind it.

So I tell patients, when you look for products, you wanna look for things that have the ADA seal of approval. That means it's been proven scientifically to do something for you. And so that's why I'm a fan. The other thing I was gonna also mention with a mouthwash. Um, the other, uh, reason a person may use a mouthwash besides, you know, killing germs and freshening their breath is, uh, you may wanna use a mouthwash to help prevent decay.

And there are some in the market that have, uh, fluoride that'll help prevent decay. So that's another use for that as well.

Jess: Okay, so one thing many people may not know about me, I don't know why they would, but, um, I have a cavity in every single tooth, but my front four teeth and some teeth have two cavities.

Um, which is a little concerning, but I'm wondering, As someone who has kind of horrible teeth, um, are teeth an indicator of overall health or if you get your, wait, sorry, lemme start that over. . As someone who has pretty bad teeth, should I be concerned because teeth are an indicator of overall health or does it not really have a correlation?

Dr. Marie: Well, we can say the mouth can be an indicator of overall health, but not necessarily teeth. So sometimes, uh, some people are more prone to cavities because we each have our own natural, what we refer to as bacteria load in our mouth, and that is literally transferred to us by a caretaker when we are an infant growing our first teeth.

So that's out of your hands. So someone may have a really great number of bacteria that. Just how it is. And someone may have lucked out and has very little bacteria, and that kind of puts them up in terms of their rate of cavities as they get older. So it's little things where you can make sure you are, you know, brushing, flossing, you're using fluoride products if you're prone to decay and.

It's not your fault in that case because this is kind of what you just kind of lucked out with. And I will say we are, when we're looking at a person in their mouth, we're looking at everything. So we're checking out their tongue, we're checking out the, um, inside of their cheeks. All of these areas that can sometimes indicate issues like, so if I see someone with really pale gums, that can be a sign that they're anem.

If I see a person who has, uh, some issues like with taste in the back of their tongue, that can be an issue where they may have an, um, an acid reflux problem. So those are other things we're looking at, not just themselves.

Wendy: Okay. That's really good to know. And I mean, I wanna like backtrack and start with basic dental hygiene.

Um, yes, because there's a lot of conflicting information about like how often people should be brushing, how often people should be flossing, how long you should be brushing for. Mm-hmm. . Um, so how many times should we be brushing and flossing every.

Dr. Marie: So generally speaking, the rule is for brushing the rule of two, so two full minutes, two times a day, and you want them to be pretty much the book ends of the day.

So, You know, in the morning, brush your teeth. And I will say it depends on when you're eating breakfast. If you have breakfast. Ideally, if you are not on the run eating breakfast, if you can brush your teeth, um, after breakfast, that would be great just to get rid of the stuff that's been on the teeth. But what's really critical more than anything is the end of the day brushing the other thing.

I recommend flossing at night to get rid of the stuff between the teeth that's accumulated through the day. The other thing is not just how long we brush, but how we're brushing is important. We wanna make sure we get all of the areas of the mouth, but a lot of times people are guilty of, um, scrubbing, like it's a Brillo pad in the pants, just kind of really roughing it up.

I've been guilty of it too, , and I think we think of it. Scrubbing feels clean. But when it comes to your teeth, you don't wanna scrub hard because you can actually brush away some of your gum tissue and even, uh, brush away some of the enamel. When it's done repetitively, repetitively, year after year, day in, day out, that can cause some damage.

So I tell people, when you're brushing, you always wanna use a soft or extra soft brush, and you wanna use the same force you would use brushing hairs on a baby's. Very gentle. Mm-hmm. . Cause we're cleaning away Soft plaque. Plaque is soft. It's not. You have to jack hammer it off. And if there's something that's built up a little bit more, you can't brush it off.

That needs to be removed professionally.

Wendy: Hmm. Okay. That's really good to know because I am definitely a heart brusher thinking that I'm actually doing something, but it sounds like I'm not, and sometimes my gums will bleed probably cuz I'm doing the most, um, now you're not

Dr. Marie: alone, you're in good company.

So that's why I say it. I say it all the time for a reason.

Wendy: And then with electric, like is mm-hmm. , is it better to use an electric toothbrush? Um, or does it actually make a.

Dr. Marie: I'm a fan of electric brushes. Um, I'm a fan because for a few reasons. One is pretty much all the electric brushes out there are using soft toothbrush heads, so that's one.

Another reason is the more modern runs now have indicators to show if you're brushing too hard, so you'll see a little light that turns red if you're pressing too. That's kind of the little, Hey, ease up. Don't brush your teeth away. So, uh, that's one of the reason. And then a lot of them now have timers, so the two minutes I mentioned, they're built in.

Now some of these toothbrushes have even, um, apps. I've seen this, um, a couple of the brands out there where you download something on the phone and it's Bluetooth connected to your toothbrush and it literally followed you through your mouth to track Have. Got into this area, or you're missing a spot. So it helps guide you to make sure you're being thorough in your brushing.

Jess: Ooh, do you have the name of any apps or one you recommend?

Dr. Marie: So usually it's the app tied to the toothbrush you buy. Okay. So I know Oral B has one, SonicCare has one. So it literally is connected to that toothbrush and kind of follows you around your mouth. Okay. We, we

Jess: use brus. Um, wish I gotta check on that.

So is someone who just started flossing at 34 and

Dr. Marie: that's you. Started. Started. That's cute.

Jess: Yeah, and it was, and brushing my teeth at night . And it was, um, really a challenge for me. I just could never do it. And every time I went to the dentist, it. pretty much scolding me, right? Like making me feel bad. The shame approach and it did not work.

Um, no. Can you talk about in your perspective as a dentist, if shame doesn't get someone to do these important dental hygiene things? What

Dr. Marie: does? I'm not a fan of shaming because we have enough to deal with as it is, so I have never been one to do that. What I will say is I. It's up to dental professionals to lead patients and meet them where they are.

So in the same way, if someone had never worked out and they sign up and work with a personal trainer, they're not gonna sit there and load up all the weights and like, okay, go ahead and do this. They have to explain what's going on and kind of work their way there. So, I actually tell patients all the time when I know they're not brushing at night, I don't pick on 'em.

I say, look, you're not alone , but we wanna make sure we find shortcuts that work for you. So what I usually will recommend is brushing and flossing after dinner, because usually at the end of the night, like you know when it's like really late, you're tired, you wanna go to sleep, and that's why people skip because it's like one more step.

That's a barrier to going to. Sleep, like sleep is king. So , no one wants to miss that. But if you can brush and floss after dinner, then you've gotten the bulk of the day's material off of your teeth. Now, sometimes people may have a snack or something to eat after that. At bare minimum, they can even just rinse like an antiseptic mouthwash for a good 30 seconds, and that's gonna help get rid of something so, Is it ideal?

No. I would like a person to brush, floss, you know, clean everything, use a mouthwash, and then go to sleep. Great. But if I can get a person at the end of the day to do that, that's gonna make a huge difference. And it becomes like habit stacking where first, you know, You eat and you have your meal, and then you think about, okay, it's time to brush and floss.

So that makes it a little bit easier to adapt into your lifestyle. So I tell people, it's just a matter of kind of where are you? What are you doing? All right? If you can't do two minutes of brushing, let's try putting the time on your phone and maybe doing an additional 30 seconds and then kind of working your way up so it doesn't seem like this daunting task because were you we're used to, honestly, most of us tend to brush our teeth for like 25, 30 seconds, so two minutes feels like an eternity.

So if you time it for like a minute, you can kind of build your way up slowly week after week. Cause we're trying to have lifetime habits, not like one time, two time thing. And that's it. Yeah,

Jess: I, I will say that's exactly what worked for me. Um, I finally went to a dental hygienist who mm-hmm. . She didn't shame me.

She said, there's still time, because everyone's like, oh my God, your teeth are horrible. Like, you suck. But she was like, no, you still have time. Like, let's work on this. We can do it. And the first time I did nothing and, and when she didn't scold me for doing nothing, I was like, oh, okay, like, maybe I can do this.

And then the second time, mm-hmm. , sh I met her, she met me where I was at, and she's like, well, how many days? You in, and we started with like two, and then now I'm, you know, years later, doing every single day. So it does work every

Dr. Marie: day. You go , there you go. . It's the baby steps.

Wendy: Yeah, the baby steps, right?

Sounds like you need to be my dentist, , because I feel like everyone is just scared of the dentist. Like, oh yeah, that's, that's a huge thing. And. My God, sorry, I just choked on my saliva. Uhoh . And it's not until you go to a good dentist that you're like, oh my God, this is actually an experience to look forward to.

Um, cause I have friends who like literally will delay it for years cuz they're just like, they had the worst experience. Um, so can you talk to us, like, how often should people be going to the dentist? Hopefully, you know, if they find a good one, .

Dr. Marie: So ideally a person should be seeing a dentist for their, uh, checkup, cleanings, and oral cancer screening twice a year.

So it varies. Now, there are some people who have some gum disease issues who may need to be seen quarterly, but every mouth is a little different. Generally speaking, twice a, the twice a year is the rule of thumb. So, I understand. I think, uh, being afraid, even though I'm the dentist, I don't love the dentist.

I hate saying that, but that's the truth. , it's, you know, it's something where when you're in the chair you feel vulnerable. You don't know what's going on. Everything kind of sounds a little wacky, smells and tastes a little wacky. It's a very foreign to you. So it's really important to find someone you can trust, because as I mentioned, You're not just having your teeth cleaned and and checked for decay.

We're looking for other signs of disease. We're looking at your tongue, under your tongue, under your lips and your cheeks. People sometimes end up with, um, oral cancer or sometimes signs of other issues, and. No one's checking those areas besides a dentist. So it is really important to have those things looked at, because otherwise you could have something lurking and you wouldn't know.

But I will say, luckily, we're in a day and age where we are super connected, so you know, Every person finds can find someone who's a service provider that works for them. So the same way, you might like one nail salon, someone else likes another one. Same thing with hair. Someone finds a stylist they love.

Someone might like another person. I think it's the same way with dentists. It's really important to find a dental home where you feel, uh, cared for. Safe and you feel like you can approach them and have things taken care of in a way that's helpful. Just like you said, Jessica, that you've meant that hygienist who kinda worked, met you where you were without shame, that helped change your entire outlook in terms of your habits.

Yeah. Yep. That's a great

Wendy: point. Cause I didn't even think that like. You guys are, are looking for other things. It's not just like cleaning your teeth. Mm-hmm. , it's like, you know, I, I didn't even, um, consider that. Uh, I just had a cleaning done in Dominican Republic. I have a great dentist in Dr. Um, However she was booked and I was like, I'm just gonna try my luck with someone else.

And I went and my cleaning was at most 10 minutes and I was like, wait a minute. I was like, this is . I was like, I'm done . He was like, you're done, right? Um, and then I went on Google and I'm like, wait a minute. How long is the cleaning supposed to be? Because I don't know if I'm bugging cuz my usual dentist will take.

45 minutes with my cleaning. Um, so how long should a cleaning be and how do you know that they did a good job?

Dr. Marie: Hmm. Okay. That's a good question. So I think I will say there is some variation between patient to patient and even provider to provider. But I wanna say when you have dental visit, usually at minimum you wanna see at least half an hour.

It can range anywhere from half an hour to an hour. But that, uh, when I say that, usually you're not just having your teeth cleaned. Uh, a lot of times you're also having x-rays to check between the teeth to make sure nothing's going on. It's lurking that we can't see with a naked eye. Uh, in some cases you may be having digital scan of your teeth just to kind of see positions of teeth and see where they are.

And sometimes even intraoral pictures, pictures inside your mouth to kind of blow things up to see, Hey, this is what's going on here, or, The other thing is, like I mentioned, the oral cancer screening. That's all part of that. So the cleaning itself is one component of that visit. So, Can be anywhere from 20 minutes on the lower end to maybe even 40 minutes on the longer end.

But all of those other things may be taking place. And usually X-rays are just once a year. And you know, if somebody has a pristine mouth where they're really diligent with their home care and nothing is going on, it may be a quicker visit. And that's usually what we see. Hmm. Good to know. Fluoride.

Jess: I feel like there's a lot of mixed information on the internet about it.

Either it's the worst thing in the world or it's mm-hmm. amazing. Um, and it's also in, I believe it's in public water, right? And, and in toothpaste. Um, is it

Dr. Marie: beneficial? Okay. So, uh, it is beneficial in terms of keeping teeth hard. It is not in water everywhere. Most states have fluoridated water. However, think about how many of us drink bottled water.

I just had a sip. You know, uh, a lot of times we're drinking, uh, purified water, so we may not be getting the fluoride in the water. The other thing is this, um, I tell patients the science is a science, so our enamel is the hardest substance in our bodies. It's made up of something called hydroxy appetite.

These little miniature crystals that make up the enamel. And what happens to fluoride is fluoride combines with hydroxy appetite, something called floral appetite, which becomes even harder. So correct in. There are rumors out here where if you ingest a bunch of fluoride, it's not good for you in the same way a lot of other things aren't good for you.

Uh, being ingested, this is really something where, generally speaking, we're talking about fluoride with toothpaste, mouthwashes, it's topical, meaning just in your mouth, just on your teeth not to be swallowed. So it's something where if you are, you know, a a, an adult who's able to control that, you're not swallowing that.

And, um, It's one of those things where we do see a benefit. Like I said, the research is out there. We see that the teeth can be made harder with that. And I've even had an experience, um, Earlier in practice when I had a patient who came in for, um, an issue, he had an x-ray taken, and on the x-ray we actually saw a soft area, which was the very early onset of a cavity.

So I marked and I told him, Hey, you know, just so you know, it looks like it's the start of a cavity. Now, if it's a very tiny area, within a certain point in the enamel, it can re harden. And by chance I saw him about three months later and that soft spot was completely hardened. I. What did you do? I had to ask him.

I was like, what did you do? Cuz I need to know . And he actually started by chance, independent of um, anything I told him he started using a fluoride mouthwash every day. Wow. Once I saw that, I said, okay, you know, that's it. I'm sold. I understand there are concerns with, you know, anything we're taking in. Of course.

So I think. You always, as an individual should talk to your own dental provider and see what they say. Everyone's mouth is at different risk. Everyone may need different things and um, you know, I tell patients there's some people who need prescription strength, Florence. Some people I can say you don't even really need fluoride.

So it just depends on the person and what their individual needs are.

Jess: Okay. That's good to know. Gum health. I was . I was on a walk with my husband this morning and I said, we're interviewing a dentist. Do you have any questions? And his question was, he, he showed me his gums and he's like, my gums are black.

Is that a problem? Okay. And he's black, by the way. Um, so. Is that a problem if you have black

Dr. Marie: gums? No. And then, okay, so look at me. I tell you this. I'm chocolate brown right here. I'm a black girl, chocolate brown. You look at my gums, you can see shades of pink and purple and dark, this, that, and other. We think of gums as everything completely pink because of what we see.

In media what we're told, there is no problem. That's melanin. That's how it shows up. Just like some people who are black, you'll see different shades on their nails. On their nail beds. It's kind of the same thing. So there is no harm with gums that are. You know, different colors due to melanin where things are a problem is if, um, we see gums that are really red from severe gingivitis or periodontitis, which is gum disease.

Or, um, if somebody has been smoking a lot and they've had a change in their gums, Now there are some circumstances where someone can have an issue, um, that is, uh, going on with hormones in their body and they can see a change in color of gums. So when we see changes, That's where it's like, Ooh, what's going on?

Maybe it's time to get some blood work with your primary care doctor to find out if there's some underlying issue and let's find out and rule out anything else. But in and of itself, not at all. I always, I, you know, um, I have pictures of my guns cause we're wearing masks all the time now. And I'll show patients like, no, no, you have guns like me, we match.

You're good. Yeah. Oh,

Jess: that's so helpful to know cuz I. That a lot of black people are sitting around worried that something's wrong, and it's just, that is the color of

Dr. Marie: your gums. That's, yep. It's, it's natural. Yeah. Is there

Jess: anything that you can do for gum health? I know you mentioned flossing is one, not brushing, uh, too intensely.

Anything else? .

Dr. Marie: So I would say flossing is the key one. Making sure you're not brushing, like you said, uh, too hard is key. The other thing is, um, uh, mouthwash, it's antiseptic because we do see that there is a change in terms of people who had gingivitis going from, uh, bleeding guns to a reduction in bleeding.

When you see. Gums that are bleeding, bleeding a lot, uh, bleeding all the time when someone's brushing, bleeding all the time when they're flossing, that's not good. We wanna make sure, uh, gums can respond to brushing and flossing without heavy bleeding. So, uh, I would say mouthwash would be the, uh, anti septic mouthwash would be the other addition, I would say, to kind of help with gun health.

Okay. And when

Wendy: you say antiseptic, uh, do you mean with alcohol? Cause I know that's a thing where there. Mouth washes that have alcohol, mouth washes that don't, which do you recommend?

Dr. Marie: So again, it's one of these things where it depends on the patient. So right now there are really only a couple of, uh, antiseptic mouth washes on the market.

Now, keep in mind this is always regulated by the fda. So there have been non-a alcohol mouth washes and research that have been proven to be as effective as those with alcohol, uh, the active ingredients. So for example, list. They're, they have the four essential oils. Those are what are the active greens that kill germs.

And so with that, the ones that are alcohol free aren't technically antiseptic as per FDA rules, but have been proven to be just as effective in terms of, uh, germ killing. And in other parts of the world, they are labeled that way. So

Jess: what brand

Dr. Marie: do you recommend? I am a huge fan of limine. Uh, I pretty much, I'm always giving out samples of that.

I use it myself. Okay. And that, um, the fluoride one is what I recommended, what I saw with that patient who had that difference with the soft to heart spott. That's what sold me, I think, years ago. Okay, great.

Wendy: Okay. Now for people that have bad breath, What's happening? Is there an imbalance going on? Is, you know, because it's like, I think for some people they've tried all the things and it's just like, mm-hmm.

it's like an underlying something that's going on where like the bad breath is just not

Dr. Marie: going away. Good question. So the number one reason for bad breath, dry mouth. If you see me sipping water, like I'm always sipping because dry mouth means bad breath. So if we increase our water, that'll be one way to help combat that.

However, there can be a, a multitude of causes, so, Somebody who may have a gum disease issue. You may have heard me mention a moment ago, peritonitis, that's gum disease. That particular gum disease causes an accumulation of certain types of bacteria. I'm not gonna lie, they're funky. So in dentistry, we refer to someone who has bad breath from periodontitis and having perio breath, like we actually, there's a very distinct smell from that because of that bacteria.

So a person would need to have some appropriate. If periodontal disease is the reason for bad breath. So that may involve, um, some deep cleaning and also making sure they're really good with their home care and staying on top of flossing. Another reason may be our tongue. So, um, a lot of times we're not always cleaning our tongues.

I don't necess, they're clean my tongue every day. But I try to make sure I do at the end of the night. A lot of the, uh, manual toothbrushes these days on the backside will have little scrubber you can use to clean your tongue. You can also find, if you look online or if you go like into a big box store, you'll see there are tongue scrapers and tongue brushes specifically to help clean the tongue.

I always tell patients you don't wanna go super rough. Like if you're, like, if you're scraping your tongue and it's bleeding, uh, that's a little too. , you don't need to be aggressive to clean it. Well. Mm-hmm. . Uh, another reason people may have bad breath is gerd or acid reflux. That can cause, uh, sometimes people have like a sour taste, something along those lines that can also be a reason for bad breath.

And, uh, sometimes certain foods just make our breaths a little hot. You know, like, um, look, I like garlic. I'm not giving it up. But, you know, after I eat something that's garlicy, I need to kind of at least rinse out or get some water to kind of get that going. Okay, that

Jess: is helpful. I just got a tongue scraper a few months ago and I really love it.

Um, and the reason I got one is I'm always terrified that I will have bad breath and not know it. Is there a way you can know on yourself if you have bad breath? Cuz I feel like most people who have it don't know .

Dr. Marie: That, that that is true. Now I can't say this something I necessarily learned in dental school, but I heard.

Back and I decided I was gonna be a dentist. I was 15 years old and I heard this back when I was like 15 or 16. And it's true, I've tried this. So if you lick your wrist, let it dry, and then go back and kind of smell it, that gives you an idea of what's going on. . That's good. So I guess it's your own self assessment because we don't necessarily know what we have because we're sitting there breathing in our breath all day.

Yeah. And I also think when Covid hit and everyone was wearing masks all at once, you may have heard that phrase, mask, breath. Mm-hmm. , that mask breath was always there. So if you were a person who may have experienced masks, mask, breath, that might have been a sign that, um, You know, it's a little ripe in your mouth, so yeah, little ripe ,

Wendy: prevented

Dr. Marie: right?

Bacteria is swimming

Wendy: Oh my God. Okay. I wanna talk about teeth whitening because I've tried all types of products. I've done, you know, the mouthwash, the strips. Recently I did this like uv. Applicator. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Um, and then of course you can like pay to have these expensive treatments with your dentist. Sure. Are these mm-hmm.

recommended, like are the DIY ones effective or a

Dr. Marie: waste of money? That's a great question. So there are some that actually do work their diy, and I'll kind of run through my whole spiel. I went with patients. When you're in the store and you see the whitening mouth washes and toothpaste, they are a lie. I wish they were true, but a lot of what they base their claims on is, say if someone hasn't been to dentist in 20 years, they've been drinking black coffee all day, and they use these products, it will help remove surface stain because the surface stain is so aggressive.

So you'll hear commercial looks like, oh, you'll change 10 shades if you use this for two months. Yeah. If you haven't been to dentist in 20 years and had that stain removed, yeah, it's gonna do something. Uh, what I will say is effective in terms of an over-the-counter product, um, are, um, I'm a fan of white strips.

Because they stay on the teeth and that active ingredient will work if you use it as directed. I've seen it. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but I also tell patients you wanna make sure you're getting something whiten that can be whitened. So sometimes people will have, um, decay or maybe even sometimes have dental work on their front teeth and.

Don't change color unless they're changed out or the decay is treated. Now getting into some of the professional options, you'll see, uh, different types of in-office whitening. So for example, uh, zoom is one brand. There's a bunch of others out there. Uh, but. You go into the dental office and you're assessed to make sure that you're a good candidate for whitening, and then you have a gel and light place over your teeth, and then after a certain amount of time it does jump shades.

I do tell patients if you are sensitive, you are not a good candidate for that type of treatment. The other thing to be aware of is when you have in-office whitening, I do, you know, tell people, very frankly, after a period of time that tends to fade what I'm the biggest fan of and what was really the first thing put out on the market, which is if you look at research, Tends to, tends to last a test of time.

Our take home custom trays made by your dentist that is loaded with a whitening gel. And the reason a fan for that of that is because, One. Um, we find the best longevity. I have a patient who did his maybe like, oh gosh, 12 years ago, still really, really bright, white stayed, and it's lasting. The other reason is if you're sensitive, there are sensitive formulas out there that you can use.

Based on what your needs are. They work a little bit slower, but again, that longevity is still there. And the biggest thing with that is just making sure you're applying it appropriately, making sure your dental professional shows you and I, I also tell people, you know, if you choose to get professional lightning.

You wanna make sure you really do get it from someone who's a licensed dental professional. There's a lot of stuff that pops up here and there, and I've seen people who have gone for whitening with someone who's not a dentist or dental hygienist and they're like, well, this didn't whiten. I'm like, it can't whiten.

That's, that's a cavity . That's not gonna work. That's not how this happens. You know, we're here to assess these things, but also we're doing it in a safe manner. We're making sure we have the appropriate product for you. People can get actual burns in their. If they're not applied correctly and safely. And also, you know, even the materials you're using, it's either disposed of or if there's some type of a metal instrument in your mouth, it's autoclaved.

Meaning it's sterilized. You don't have that in a setting. That's not a professional setting. So it's not supposed to burn? No. Well, okay. You can have some sensitivity. Sensitivity is within normal range burning. No. Okay. Absolute no, no, no, no, no, no.

Jess: Because I did it and it was with my dentist and my mouth felt like it was burning off.

And uh, I was like, this is not for me. But I probably wasn't APP doing it. Right.

Dr. Marie: And I don't think it was custom. You have the best, so it, depending on what it was, what the product was, if it was something that you placed yourself, there's a chance you may have overloaded the tray. There's a tray you place some material into.

I literally sit there and I have like a little demo model, and I'll show patients like, You only need about half a grain of rice in each air where the teeth are. If you're loading it and it's all over, it will hurt. It's uncomfortable. So that's when you've gone a little too far with that material. Okay, good to know.

Jess: I don't, maybe I'll try again. I was like sworn off of it, but, um, oh yeah, I, my d dentist is amazing. I don't know what happened. Um, . So what foods or drinks will darken your teeth? Uh, I hear coffee, all the.

Dr. Marie: coffee is a big one. Uh, tea, especially like, um, just plain simple tea without any like milk added to it.

One thing I've seen recently, uh, with a lot of more, so it's, it's like surface staining. We'll see kombucha. So it's like the fermented tea that really like adheres to the teeth for some reason. Uh, even I tell patients anything that's like dark that can darken a white T-shirt that can potentially put something on your teeth.

So, um, berri. Um, berry juices, cranberries, things like that. Now I tell people, keep eating them cuz they're good for you. A lot of the times it's just surface stain. If it's something where it's, a lot of that can be polished off and that's what we see a lot of. So I'll see someone who comes in and they were there three months ago.

I'm like, Hmm, what's going on? How come there's so much pain? What are you eating or drinking? That's different. And usually I'll find out, oh, I've been having, you know, blueberries every morning. I'm like, look, keep eating your blueberries. Keep getting your antiox. But we can polish this off and they may need to use something.

Like I've mentioned before, those whitening mouthwash washes and toothpaste, they don't actually whiten, but they do help prevent stain. So if someone is having some of these dark products, I'll say, Hey, use this daily. That will help. And electric toothbrush will also help. Even just rinsing out with water after taking in for this stuff will be helpful too.

Great.

Jess: Good to know. Um, I have a question and this is our last one before we do our fire round , but um, , yeah, we have a fire round with listeners submitted questions. So enamel, that's another I feel thing I hear about all the time. Um, you know, you hear don't drink the lemon water because it'll have an impact on enamel, um, seltzer water, things like that.

A. Like, are there things that can er what? Well, actually, what does erode enamel and can you get enamel

Dr. Marie: back? Good question. So to answer the last part, you cannot get enamel back. So that's something to be aware of. And yes, there are things that erode enamel. Almost anything acidic. So if you have someone who's putting lemon to their teeth, that can do it.

Um, even things that are, um, processed, carbohydrates stay in your mouth in a long time. So somebody has, um, a cough drop in the corner of their mouth and it's like a sugar cough drop or certain mints that have sugar in them, like the red and white mints. We see if they're holding 'em in the area, the bacteria, your.

Kind of attacks that, uh, the same candy or mint or whatever it is, and it leaves behind an acid byproduct that actually eats away at your teeth. So CEL water can do it if it's an excess. Um, anything that's really acidic can do it. So anything that's like, um, if someone's having like a little shot of apple cider vinegar in the morning, out a little bit of water after.

Those are things that kind of slowly erode and wear away the enamel. So you do wanna be mindful of those types of things, but even, um, processed carbohydrates kind of have a very similar impact as well to these acidic things. Now, I'll tell you this. I'm a hardcore self awarded addict. I'm not giving it up, but what I do is I generally will have self water with my meal, so I'm not sipping on it all day.

I'll have it with something else. If it was up to me, I would just sip it, drink it, bathe in it. I like, I'd want only comfortable think that I'm, that's it. I'm a LA lady all day. Yes. But, um, . . But, but, um, there, there is, uh, an acidic component to it. It's is, it's bad as soda. No bec uh, when it comes to what it does to your teeth, because soda also has the sugar in it.

But is it ideally sipping on all day? No, unfortunately it's not. So I tell people if you're gonna have those things, try to space them out rather than having them into your mouth all day and then follow up with some water. Okay.

Jess: Last really quick follow up about the enamel. Should you brush your teeth? I know we talked a little bit about it, but for people who are like, oh, should I brush after every meal?

Or does that like mess with your

Dr. Marie: enamel at all? So usually the rule of thumb is after you eat, when, wait about maybe half an hour because like I mentioned, the bacteria in your mouth leave behind a little bit of an acidic, um, byproduct from carbohydrates that we eat. If you can wait about half an hour, have a little water, then brush, that's best.

Um, I'm not gonna lie, I only brush my teeth twice a day. If someone wants to brush after every. Great, go for it. But maybe wait that little bit of time if you can, so that you aren't, um, brushing away more than you need to be. Mm.

Wendy: Okay. Got it. So it

Dr. Marie: sounds like the acid makes things weaker. Oh, I see. So you have to let it settle a little bit.

Yep. Your mouth will return. Its, um, pH kind of to the neutral stage after about half an hour. Mm-hmm. . Okay.

Wendy: That's great to know. Okay, we're ready for our fire round cuz I mean we could, we could keep this interview right for days. Um, so we're just gonna shoot some questions at you and you can quickly answer them as best as you can.

What is gingivitis?

Dr. Marie: It's a swelling of the gum or we refer to as a gingiva, so it's bleeding of the guns. We don't wanna see that brush thoroughly floss to help reduce and then eliminate. , is

Jess: there anything wrong with aluminum

Dr. Marie: fillings? So similar feelings that you see? No, they're not as typically done anymore just because now the tooth colored feelings have really stepped their game up over these last, gosh, 15, 20 years.

So that they're pretty much as strong as those. I have 'em, I tell people, don't be afraid of them, but I don't place them here cuz I don't even keep the materials anymore. So if they're in good shape, they're okay. I think a concern is, uh, mercury exposure. Uh, when you have one placed, you're exposed about as much mercury as you would from eating a tuna fish.

Oh, okay. Not much. . Ready here. First,

Wendy: how to avoid root canals of your prone to them.

Dr. Marie: Making sure that you go into regular care. If you have a cavity, you wanna make sure it's sniffed in the bud before that cavity grows to become a problem, to get into the nerves. So when that cavity reaches the nerve, it's either had that tooth out.

Or have a root canal. So if you go in for regular checkups, make sure you're good with your home care. That will help prevent a lot of that. Great

Jess: tips for tooth grinding. Is a night guard helpful or is there anything that you recommend?

Dr. Marie: So usually a night guard is helpful. You usually wanna get one professionally fitted cause some can cause more grinding depending on how they fit.

The other thing is, in some severe cases, patients can actually have a Botox injection to help reduce that. Like tension in the muscle doesn't really do anything in terms of looks. It may slim the jaw a little bit, maybe for some, but it helps kind of reduce that heavy duty clenching that some people will.

Okay.

Wendy: Teeth straightening, do

Dr. Marie: they work the kit? I would recommend highly against them because you're literally pushing teeth through bones. What does that mean? Um, in, in, in a case, if someone's healthy and all is well and they're lucky, great. You know, but there's a reason that there are orthodontists who went to three years of additional training.

To know how to do this and know how to do it safely. I've had patients who have done some DIY stuff and I've seen, um, someone not too long ago who actually has had four her teeth removed, because unbeknownst to her Yeah, that's what I said. I said, wow, I wish you saw first. Oh, why did you do this? I, I wanted to cry.

She's, I, um, she didn't know she had issues with gum disease that would've needed to be. First, and then really she should have been treated with an orthodontist, moving things extra slow to help prevent further issues.

Jess: But as long as you're doing it with an orthodontist, it's okay. Like Invisalign?

Dr. Marie: Yes.

Okay, cool. Correct. If you're doing it with a dental professional, be it a dentist who's trained in that or an orthodontist, then you're in good shape. Okay. At

Jess: what age should your kids start going to the

Dr. Marie: dentist? By age one, Uhhuh, , uh, even though, yeah, usually you, I always refer to have patients see a pediatric dentist at that age because things can go wrong.

And, um, you know, you also wanna make sure, um, parents know what to do to help prevent decay because you can see cavities in kids as little as like two or three. And in that case, sometimes, uh, a child with that age really needs to be seen in an operating room. Get treatment. So the idea is to prevent that and get in there early and learn what you should or shouldn't do to help prevent decay.

Wendy: Hmm. Okay. Charcoal toothpaste. Does it have any benefits?

Dr. Marie: Don't do it. Don't do it. No. . If you want to have abrasion on your teeth and sensitivity, if you wanna wear away enamel, go for it. But I highly, strongly recommend against it. It became like the big thing on ig and I've had so many patients come in like, oh, I'm using this.

I'm like, oh, I'm so sorry. I don't wanna hurt your feelings. But I have to, and I've had so many patients come in with sensitivity after erosion and basically abrasion from the charcoal product. Wow. So, I, I'm, I am a don't do it type of, Wow, when you're looking at toothpaste, look for the ADA seal of approval on your toothpaste.

There's a reason that it's fair. The American Dental Association has done some background work on it, and it's been proven to be beneficial for you. Dang. Okay. Yeah. Cause

Wendy: there's a lot of them out there.

Dr. Marie: There's a lot of marketing behind them. There's so many. Yeah. Oh yeah. No, I, I see. Good to know. I've seen the aftermath too.

Jess: Well, that's the thing, it's like a dentist is the best person to go to because you actually see the, before the, after the things gone wrong. Oh yeah. It's like the botch plastic surgery thing, unfortunately, what not to do. Right. Okay. Hookah, somebody asked, is hookah bad

Dr. Marie: for your. I guess maybe smoking. Okay.

It's like smoking. I tell people cigars, cigarettes, hookah, weed, all of the above. If you smoke it, even vaping, anything that's smoked dries your mouth. It increases your risk of cavities, decay, gum disease, and oral cancer. So you're saying people should do. Edibles minimize. Well, technically, I mean, I guess it's identified to say don't do the gummies if you're going to do them, because it'll sit in your teeth.

So, oh, if someone's gonna indulge, stay away from anything that is smoked only because of the, um, effects on your teeth. You know, this is the reality of it. Smoking in any form is harmful to your mouth and increases the risk of oral cancer. There's just no getting arou around. Wow. Okay.

Wendy: UV lights for whitening.

I recently told you that I, I tried this, like UV kit. I put the gel on it. Uh, are they effective? I noticed a, a little bit of an improvement, but I think it kind of went away.

Dr. Marie: The gel is really what does the work, so usually these, uh, gels that you place on the teeth white. That's what's really doing the trick, um, in a professional setting.

We do have, uh, other types of lights we're using, but the key component ingredient is the gel. So the at home UV lights really aren't doing too much, but the gel that is part of that kit usually is. Okay. That's, that's the meat potatoes of it. The gel

Jess: last fire round question. Um, how, and this is a really good one, , how often should you change your

Dr. Marie: toothbrush?

I tell people every season, so okay, it's the first day of spring, summer, fall, winter. So every three months I just change it. Literally, once the season changes, I pop off my toothbrush heads, toss out any e manual brushes and swap it out. So it should be every three months. Now, if you've been brushing like the BRI pad and you have like bristles that are looking like, they're like, Pompoms, you know, oh, you have to call me out.

Laid out. Sorry, you.

Wendy: No, this is good. This is everything. Yeah. I gotta change my, I've been using that too, right? Head for, I don't even know how long. Fine for dear life happens. .

Dr. Marie: It happens. Yep. If it's on last leg, let it go.

Wendy: Right, right. Okay. Oh my God. Well, Dr. Marie, this was incredible. Thank you. Yes. So much for sharing all of these necessary.

Tips with us. Um, tell us like where you're based, if people wanna work with you, where they can find you, where they can connect with you

Dr. Marie: online. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate being on here. I love your work. Uh, you can find me on Instagram. Uh, my office is named Stellar Smile Tenter. My Instagram handles at Stellar Under Smile.

You can also find me on Facebook or stellar smile center.com. I'm based in Montclair, New Jersey. Amazing. Yay. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was

Wendy: great. You, I learned so much. I,

Jess: this is a life, a life-changing, um, type

Wendy: of thing. Things we need to know.

Dr. Marie: Yeah. For real. I hate, I hate busting everyone's bubbles though.

I will say when it comes to, um, the charcoal thing, I feel like I've heard everyone's feelings in the last couple years. I'm like, I'm so sorry. That's why we have professionals

Jess: to keep it real because it's like a lot of this, it's

Wendy: a fun line. It's a lot of scammy out

Dr. Marie: there. It's, and it's um, it's, you know, when you see like the aftermath, I'm like, oh, we don't, I don't like pain.

That's the bottom a line. If we can do things to help avoid pain in a healthy manner, then I'm here for it.

Wendy: Okay. And then one last question with the uv. So you're saying, I don't even need to put, but when you light on, we have a call, . I know, I know. I emailed him. Ok. Oh, ok, cool. Um, so I don't have to put the light on.

I could just put the gel and it'll be okay.

Dr. Marie: It'll be okay. It's not harmful. The light doesn't really do much. Not doing much to tell you the truth. Yeah, it's really all about the gel.

Wendy: It's another scam. Okay. Cuz it looks so, you know, glamorous and stuff. Well,

Dr. Marie: that's part of it. It's part of the sale of that.

And I will say if you're buying it yourself, there's a limit to how far that'll go because you can only get so many things over the counter. Um, the, the actual gel itself has limit in terms of how high of, um, the active ingredient they can go in terms of concentration. Mm-hmm. , mm-hmm. . So, you know, you can get something from professionals that you can't get everywhere else.

Wendy: Right. Okay. All right. Well, Dr. Murray, thank you. We do to go. Thank. Okay. This was,

Dr. Marie: thank you so much. Bye bye. Bye. Thank you for your patience with me, . Thank Of course. Take

Wendy: care.

Icebreaker question. , I see you post a lot in France and you speak French, and maybe I just don't know the whole story. And you talk about how French skincare is better than American skincare. Are you French? Or like where does this connection with France

Charlotte: come? Okay. So I wouldn't say that French skincare is better.

I think that there are many things in the US that are comparable, if not better, in terms of skincare. Um, what I will say is that sunscreen internationally is, Usually better than in the United States. I am a non melanated person. I have zero protection from the sun. Skin cancer runs rampant in my family, so I take it pretty seriously.

Um, so that's actually where I think that France does a lot better. And I also think that France is more minimalist, um, which we can talk a lot about how doing the most sometimes is actually just giving yourself a face wound. But, um, says, Born in the US but I spent a lot of time in France as a kid, and my grandmother raised me for a short amount of time.

Oh, wow.

Jess: Yes. Oh, cool. I'm, I'm so excited to talk more about the sunscreen because I actually have listened to a lot of your recommendations. and I started using purto. Is it

Charlotte: called Preto? Purto, yeah. They had a huge controversy, which we can talk about. Um, They had a testing issue, um, where their sunscreen actually was at much lower levels than what they claimed.

But the reality is, is that that's actually happened in the US quite a bit as well. Um, it's an issue with sunscreen testing and we can actually talk about how sunscreen testing is pretty problematic because it's talking about erythema redness. Um, some people don't present as red, white people do. Not everybody does.

Some people actually just turn darker, right? And that's because, um, when you're more melanated, you have like, not to say that people who are more melanated don't burn. Of course there's a range, but there are some people who don't burn. And so if you're display redness, In the way that you would be measuring the sunscreen.

So, you know, there's a lot of issues with how we test sunscreen protection. Um, but I think there's more tests coming out. But again, it's like Europe. They talk about things like visible light, right? Where it's like that's starting to become something that you can claim. But what is the test for it? You see it visible light is blue light.

and while blue light from your screens, don't worry about it too much. It's more about the visible light from the sun. That's actually now a lot of research being like, oh, well there's a lot of issues with melasma. It actually might be from visible light. And so when you're looking at that piece, it's like CEP suffers more from, um, differences in pigmentation or hyperpigmentation.

It's going to be more melanated folks because there's more active melanocytes and lanzones, which then deposits pigment, which is like, for me, it's like there are pro. It's too absolutely everything. Like I, I think that when you look at more melanated skin, it also doesn't age as quickly. It maintains collagen elasticity, like there's so many different things, but every skin type, which includes how much melanin you have, is gonna have different needs.

And I just find that in Europe when you make a claim, you have to back it up. And that's actually what I like the most about their regulations and their products. It's not to say that there aren't amazing products in the US and amazing brands doing incredible things, like I would say a lot of innovation, particularly on the marketing front and trends comes from the.

Okay,

Wendy: let's reel it back because I know you're . We have, we have so many questions for you cuz you're so knowledgeable. But first, tell us about how you got into skincare.

Charlotte: Absolutely. So, um, I'm the co-founder and c e o of Due, which is a clinically vetted and price transparent skincare brand. But before that I was actually working in magazines.

Quite a few different, I was at Snapchat for a while and while I was at Snapchat, spending a lot of time in Los Angeles and I, um, saw what was happening with cannabis, uh, and I thought it was, I was like, not again. Like we are, we are not trend defying. An in an ingredient that has medicinal properties and we are certainly not doing that and making money off of it.

While so many people, largely black and brown people are in jail, like, this is ridiculous. Like, we cannot be doing this again. But we were, we did, we were, we did. There's still a lot of issues within that industry. Um, I started a newsletter with my co-founder, Marta. Around cannabis, destigmatizing it. Also talking a lot about psilocybin and just a lot of what, like the research that was coming out, um, which obviously is like these plans actually do have, you know, effects on your brain, which can be positive.

So let's talk about what that looks like. Um, and it eventually led us to Joyce Dilemmas, who is our chief of product. She was a. Um, clinical, basically clinical chemist. She was doing a lot of the patents for SkinCeuticals, doing a lot of the trials, doing a lot of the formulations. And so we started talk to her about cannabinoids.

And from my perspective, I was like, I wanna prove out what works and what doesn't work with it. Because the issue with trends is that trends go away. And for many people, cannabis is not a trend. It is something that. Benefits their life, helps them with pain, helps 'em with so many different things, even if it's just relaxing.

We've normalized alcohol to the point of actual like damage. So it's like, you know. De-stigmatizing that, but also what does it do for your skin, like I'm curious to know. And so we ended up doing clinical trials with Joyce and that's actually when we brought her on fully. And that's really when I started to get into skincare.

I got my aesthetician's license as a result of it, because if I'm leading a company, I need to understand basic skin histology. Otherwise, like, you know, you're working from a business side, but. Skincare is science. And we always forget that it's not just about your vision and your marketing, it's really what is it doing for the skin.

And so I really wanted to be able to understand that and to be able to hold my own, at least like look like I'm holding my own in a room with Joyce because she is a genius . So that's really how I got into skincare. It was through cannabis. Wow. Does

Jess: your company have a, have

Charlotte: cannabis in its products? In one product.

Um, so, you know, and I worked in beauty at Cosmo and you know, like l and I worked at all those magazines, but it wasn't product development. Um, but Deliverance is our first serum that came out and that actually has a cannabinoid complex. And the reason why we don't promote it that much is because for us, like we're not an ingredient company.

We're a formula company. Anybody can come out with an ingredient. For us, it's about holistically, how are you looking at it? What's the stability of it? How does it work? In conjunction, are we testing on multiple skin tones so that we can actually make. You know, very fair claims. Are we testing it one time a day, two time a day, two times a day?

What does that look like? And so Deliverance actually was our first product. We're super proud of it. And it is incredible at what it does, which is basically targeting irritation, um, evening tone, and then just basically plumping out the skin. It's not tread though, right? It's peptides. So it's not gonna be as like, you know, as in intense as say a t Trone would be, but I actually can use retinoids and T trone because of.

Um, product and it's a nice companion product to it. Nice.

Jess: So for people who are like, okay, I don't know what y'all are talking about, this is used to be me. Like three years ago when you said tread, I was like, oh Lord. Like there's probably like, what is Tretinoin? Um, I started using Tretinoin. I started using Deliver.

I use your, uh, I use your moisturizer anyway, we'll get into it. But, um, okay. What is a basic skincare routine, or what does that look like for folks who have no idea what's going on right now, and for folks who do and maybe need to know if what they're doing makes any sense?

Charlotte: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I have, I would say a much more maximalist routine, but I've always had a skincare routine, like since I was like a child, and that's actually my grandmother and my Mahan that got me into that, which is if you're.

Your body, you have to wash your face. You know, it's like, I feel like sometimes people just don't bring that up. And it's like if you shower every day, then why wouldn't you bring that to your face? And I live in New York, it is disgusting here. You walk through the streets and you're like, I'm definitely walking through like a fugue state of like pigeon excrement and like whatever.

The rats have left for us . So I need to wash my face. Like I sometimes wash my face twice a day, which I don't love doing cause I have quite dry skin. Basically wash, cleansing your skin is a, is a baseline. And when you live in climates like New York that are very dry in the winter, you're probably gonna want a moisturizer.

You're also gonna want an S P F, right? So for me, sunscreen, I use it for two reasons, and I think you need to be really honest about it. The first one's obviously cancer, but the second one. Second one is, is that I am prone to. Aging based off of sun damage. And so what that means is that the sun has ultraviolet rays U V A and U V B and then H E V is high energy, visible light.

These different rays of different lengths, they actually get deep into the skin and they start eating white elastin and collagen. And because I am less melanated, I have less activity in like, there's like some preliminary studies that when you are less melanated, you actually have less of that activity.

And so. I'm trying to protect what I got. And this means sunscreen all year round, right? So it doesn't matter if it's winter. Some, some people use their sunscreen as a moisturizer. I have what I like affectionately call husk skin. So the basic routine is cleanse, moisturize, S p F, and then at night just cleanse, moisturize.

Serums or treatments, right? So say you have propp pigmentation. Say you have wrinkles. Say that you want a kind of lessen, say you have, you know, um, acne. I, I recommend going to a dermatologist, quite frankly, or an aesthetician that really knows what they're doing and has like a strong, you know, track record.

Um, that's going to be something more that's treatment based. And that's when you start getting into maximalism. Yeah.

Wendy: I love that cuz there's so much consumerism in the skincare space where like, you know, I see a lot of skincare influencers and they have , you know, like over a hundred products in, in their, in their, whatever their medicine cabinet.

Um, they have a closet dedicated to skincare products and I'm just like, but who has the money or the time to be? Going through all of this stuff, so I love that you broke it down. You said spf F moisturizer, some kind of skin wash. Do you recommend a certain number for

Charlotte: spf? So I like I SPF 30 plus is definitely something that is like recommended by like dermatologists.

Like the difference between 30 and 50 is minimal, but it is there. And the biggest thing, actually the biggest difference between 30 and 50. Is that if you use an SPF F 50, um, and if you use a little bit less of it, you're actually getting like a pretty good amount of protection. Cuz in order for sunscreen to work you need to be using two milligrams per centimeter squared.

That's how sunscreen is tested on your, on, on arms for what we were talking about earlier, which is redness. And so if you're using less than that, you're actually not getting the SPF protection factor. It turns out into like a handful. And so, . Um, I use SPF 50 because I want every little bit of protection and you know, I'm not measuring out in my teaspoon things, so it's more about like a security blanket for me.

But SPF 30, if you're using a good amount, is very good protection. Okay, good.

Wendy: Now it's common practice amongst me and my friends. When the summertime rolls around, we're like, oh, we wanna get golden. We wanna go to the beach, and we wanna spend hours, you know, deepening that melanin. Is this a good practice?

Are we actually just like killing our skin ? Well, should we not be doing this?

Charlotte: Listen, and like, this is probably gonna be very controversial, what I say, but you know, for me it is not a good. It is not a good idea because I am not melanated and skin cancer runs in my family like crazy. Everybody's had sometimes malignant tumors.

Okay? So for me, I tend when I was a kid and I deeply regret it because I keep getting chunks taken outta my body. Okay? It's like not, you don't, it's like I'm 35. I'm like really young and so it's scary. Okay? Now, if you don't have a history of skin cancer, If you are more melanated, right? If you have that kind of like, like that protection, while I wouldn't say bake, it's like if you're outside in the sun for 20 minutes.

you get a little bit of a tan. I don't think it's the end of the world. What I will say, and what dermatologists have told me is that tanning is the sign of your skin responding to ultraviolet radiation. This is radiation, okay? So that is damage to the skin, and your skin is trying to protect itself, okay?

Everybody's gonna have a different level of what they're willing to have in terms. Damage. And some people, no matter what they do, they will tan, right? Like I was in Florida, I'm wearing SPF 50, head to toe was wearing protective clothing. I somehow still got a tan on my back bike riding, and I'm like, how?

And I'm not gonna berate myself and be like, oh, I'm like a, I'm ruining my skin. But dermatologist will say this, the sign of a tan is a sign of. This isn't to shame anyone. This is literally just the biological response. However, the severity of that is gonna vary by person. For me, I think the consequences are much more severe than if, say you're a Fitzpatrick six, which is one of the dark, one of the more darker, like the darkest you can be in terms of Melan Nation.

It's like I would not like be freaking out if I was a Fitzpatrick six and I had a little bit of a tan. For me, I'm like, uh, wait, was that around that weird mole that I had? Because now I need to go to the dermatologist. Yeah. Oh

Wendy: my gosh. If you go higher than 50, is it more effective? Like, you know how there's like SPF 80?

Like does that

Charlotte: even, we're talking about like fractions more effective and for me it's like focus, yes. SPF 5,000. Like there's actually regulations, like in the US you cannot, you're not supposed to really be claiming over 60, I believe. Um, just because it's like, what? It creates like a false sense of security.

Oh, if I'm using a hundred, I don't need to reapp. No, or I don't need to use as much. Right. And I kind of said that. I'm like, oh, when I use 50, I don't like cry if I don't use as much. Like, you know, even though I try to use like a big doll up. And so, you know, I think that the differences are minimal enough.

Like SPF 50, you're very protected if you're using that every day in the right amount, like you are golden. And for me, I only reapply sunscreen when I'm like really playing like outdoor sport. No, I don't play outdoor sports. I mean like being at the beach

That's like, like the recommendation is on the back of the bottle. I'm like, we're working on a sunscreen right now, so I'm like remembering all the regulatory stuff. . Yeah. I don't like reapply, like unless if I'm like outside or like drinking on a boat. Yeah. Which sounds nice.

Jess: I wanna talk a little bit about sunscreen, a little more about it, um, because I thought that I was applying a ton.

I mean, my face turns completely white. Um, it takes time for it to. For it to feel like it blends in, absorbs whatever, but I'm not applying like a table. Like what is an eyeball

Charlotte: amount? It's a fourth of a teaspoon. So it's like a little puddle in your finger I would say. So it's not like a huge doll up for me.

I do my face, like me applying like sunscreen is like really aggressive because I like to do my skincare routine fast. Like the people who. Lovingly massaging. Like sometimes I'll do like a buckle massage like right here and I'll really get in there. Cause I have T M J like, and I will get my hand in there, but it's like I'm not like one of those people who's like lovingly applying everything and waiting like 10 minutes.

So it's like for me, I just like rub and so I do my neck and my chest every day as well. Yeah. Do you do your hands as well? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like I'll take the excess and I'll like do that. And then I also have like a sunscreen in my bag that I use the hand. Okay.

Jess: And then for reapplying, like for example, I am working in a home, in a home office, and there's two windows, like one here, one here.

That's like almost the whole wall. Is that harmful for your skin to be in front of a window?

Charlotte: So again, it's like that visible light. If you have like melasma or hyperpigmentation, like that, part of the reason of wearing sunscreen, it's not purely just for, you know, taking care of, you know, degradation of collagen.

Via UV radiation. It's the fact that it triggers hyperpigmentation and people spend a lot of money trying to reduce hyperpigmentation. It's not a problem for me because I don't have melanated skin, and so when I get a pimple or when I cut myself or whatever, I don't, I don't, Keli, I don't have any Keli scarring.

Um, which is actually a beautiful sign because it means that you have like very active like collagen, um, and elastin and like, you know, that and activity, which I'm like, that's actually a good. Um, and then the other piece is that, uh, my inflammation promote presents as redness, right? Erythema post-inflammatory erythema versus post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation.

Hyperpigmentation. When you have like those dark spots that are like purple or brown or like darker and they take a long time to, you know, get taken care of, and that's because you have inflammation. And that inflammation is then activating the melanocytes, right? It's all part of wound healing response rates.

And so when you have high energy visible light, which is daylight, right? I'm not even talking about burning, right? You're not gonna burn. I mean, unless if you're sitting like right in the ray of light, like you're not gonna really burn sitting at your window. But that kind of like indirect light, we still don't really know the full effects of that and how that impacts hyperpigmentation.

So if you're struggling with melasma, just wear sunscreen, but try to wear a s. They say that mineral sunscreen is better in terms of blocking it, um, for a visible light, but there's also plenty of sunscreens in Europe and Asia that also test for visible light. And so, um, that could be technically considered like the PA scale in Asia, right, which is actually darkening.

It's not just redness. They're looking at tanning. basically. Um, that's ano, that's one test that's done. And it's supposed to be for more, um, like different rays. So like a uva, a raise, and technically, I guess you consider it visible light. But in Europe, they have one specific claim for H E V, which is visible light.

So again, it's like not gonna, I mean, I, I'm not worried about anybody getting skin cancer from sitting by a window again, unless it's like you're in the window and like, you know, when you're driving. And you have one side of your face that's more like people will see more pigmentation, more aging, more everything on one side of their face.

That's because the sun is like beating on your face. If you have kind of indirect light. I'm not too worried about it. I wouldn't be too worried about it. I wear sunscreen every day cause it's habit and because, um, I don't wanna develop mola, which runs in my family too. Yeah, it's hormonal, right? So, but if you can help not trigger it, that's also a vibe.

Really quick

Jess: follow up question with, you mentioned mineral sunscreen. So for people who don't know, there are two types of sunscreen, my understanding, mineral and chemical. Um, I had heard from dermatologists, from my dermatologist to go with mineral. Um, however, chemical for me was someone with dry skin seems to feel better on my skin.

Do you have any

Charlotte: thoughts on. Yeah, I do. I think there's a lot of misinformation around sunscreen. I think that also something, so physical sunscreens are zinc and titanium dioxide, right? They, um, just like chemical sunscreens, they form a film on the skin and basically they absorb beauty radiation, but it's basically not your skin that's absorbing, it's the filter.

The idea that physical filters reflect light is actually like, maybe 5% more light is reflected. It's really not like anything to write home. And so when you're looking at chemical sunscreens, the concern is is that some of the filters in the United States, they've been shown to systemically absorb into the skin.

Now your skin is a barrier. Very little gets past your skin, and that's why it was like, maybe this, we should look into this more. Did anyone say that it's causing cancer? Nope. Just the presence of something does not mean that it is dangerous. Okay. Just because it's. Um, have we been using these filters for a very long time?

Yes. Is skin cancer cancer, yep. Is UV radiation? We know it to be bad. Absolutely. So from my perspective, with my tolerance for risk, none of these filters are being banned anywhere else in Europe. I think that they're being limited. Some of them, like homos for example, in Europe you can only use it at certain percentages, whereas yes, in the US you can use it at much higher levels.

So what I would say is if you are concerned and you want. The lowest amount of risk known to mankind. No, that, you know, these chemical filters have been proven time and time again to be. Sure. Use physical sunscreen if that's something that you want. Understand that the formulas are gonna be chalkier. Um, they're probably gonna dry out your skin because zinc isn't astringent, right?

It's soaks, it's like clay. It's like it soaks up the oil on your face and when you're like us, we, we don't have any oil to begin with. And I think that also, remember, if it's a brand telling you, They're trying to sell you their version. So be very, very wary. A lot of this information is coming from brands and some of these studies are funded by brands.

So we're just kind of like Syd. I'm just kind of sitting here and I'm like, find what works for you. Um, buying the sunscreen that you can use every single day. And for me, I do prefer the sunscreen filters in Europe simply because they don't sting my eyes. I have no concerns about chemical sunscreens here.

I coat myself in chemical sunscreens cause I can't use physical sunscreen on my body. It takes too long to rub it and I don't like looking like, I'm like, you know, a cast member of the Walking Dead.

Wendy: Yeah,

I wanna touch on genetics because I feel like there's not enough talk about genetics when it comes to skincare. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked like, oh, what's your, you know, skincare regimen? And like, honestly, up until like two or three years ago, like there was no regimen. I was barely washing my face and I'm just like, it's literally all genetics

So, uh, can you touch on

Charlotte: that? Yeah. And I think. It's, it's a really good point to bring up because people always say to me like, oh, your skin is just genetics. And I'm like, yes. A lot of it is genetics. Absolutely. But also if I didn't use skincare, I know what my skin would look like and I know what has changed and what hasn't changed.

Right. Like you have your baseline and then it's like, I'm like, I go either above or below it. Right? And so I think that another thing people don't think about with genetics is, is melanin. Right. If you have more melanated skin, you are not going to be presenting signs of aging at the same, at the same rate.

I went to this Dior event for a launch they had, and there's this dermatologist that I adore that was just like so spot on about everything that she was saying, and I was like, thank you for saying it so clearly. But it was like, you know, showing pictures of different people at different Melan nation levels and how they age differently.

And obviously environment and your habits will have an impact if you're a smoker. Yeah, things are gonna happen. Not great, but inside too, right? Um, drinking a lot, not sleeping, like all of those things like in moderation, like, you know, drinking obviously fine, but I'm talking like if you're binge drinking every day, it's obviously gonna have an effect on your appearance, your wellbeing, your brain, like all the things.

And so she was showing these pictures of different people, and it's like if you look at somebody who's 40 years old and black, and somebody who is 40 years old and white, that difference in aging is gonna present very differently. So me asking, oh, what do you do for your skincare routine? It's like, well, you've had melanin, therefore built in sun protection.

You may have more love. Like layers in your epidermis, which is your high, like top layer of skin. There might, there's some research that shows like there's a different like response with collagen and fibroblasts, which is what keeps your skin from like sagging and keeps it like all together. So there are so many different things, and even just like, you know, practices, right?

So if you stay outta the sun all the time, your skin's gonna look pretty. Pretty good. Like my grandmother doesn't use really skincare. She, she has a tub of NEA that she's had like, you know, since like the war and like , you know, she just doesn't go in the sun and her skin is impeccable. And so I think that there are so many layers.

Like, and for me, people ask me about my skin. I'm like, I'm using sunscreen since I was like 25. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And that's cuz that, that was the first skin cancer scare that my family had. I wasn't using enough, I was using a little bit, but I was still using something. That has a huge impact, the cumulative effect, and so that's why I think like asking people ask me for my skincare too, because of what my skin looks like.

I'm like, ask me because of my expertise and what I know, not necessarily what my skin looks like. Yeah. Yes, it's a byproduct of it, but a lot of this is genetics. . Yeah. And I'm trying to keep my genetics. I'm like, let's see how far we can keep this going. Right? Yeah.

Jess: Yeah. We had a, another skincare expert on years ago, dermatologist, and um, she was saying that everyone has like a different, I don't know if the term was like setpoint or something, a threshold maybe, where it's like, yeah, maybe you're melanated and your threshold is a little different, but if you don't take care of your skin, like at some point, Theoretically, um, you know, you might, I don't wanna say like show sign because it's like I, okay.

That's another thing too. Let's talk about that , like the aging thing, because I feel like a lot of the skincare stuff is very rooted in like anti ageism and then like we can't get older and sagging skin and all this and that. And I think especially for women, it's hard, right? Because you have two options.

We have three options. One is just like genetically your skin is quote, like useful and you know that's good for you in terms of getting through society. And then the second option is you do show

Charlotte: early signs of aging

Jess: and, um, people are always commenting, right? Like even sex in the city. The reboot. It's like everyone's talking about how they look and skin and this and that and, but there, it seems like most of them haven't, you know, had any surgery or fillers and so that's like one option, but everyone's like has something negative to say.

And then the other option is like the real house wise, where you do have all the Botox and the fillers and the surgery or Kardashians, and then everyone's talking about that too. Like, oh, how did they succumb to the pressures? And it's like, you really can't

Charlotte: win. Right? There is no such thing as aging gracefully.

Like when somebody's like age gracefully, I. According to whom you, because if I listen to the person that commented right below you, they have a different opinion and then the person below them has another different opinion. Like, you can't live for other people. And what I would say is that, um, people don't like seeing older women.

And I'm like, I'm convinced it's. Because people don't like women in positions of authority and in showing aging, it's like you are clearly like more wise and like, well, you have no more value anymore because like, you're not like this like, like, and I, I hate to say it, but it's like you're not fuckable anymore.

So it's like, you know, very much so like property based and the fact that it's like you are a thing, you are not a person. And this isn't to say that we don't shame men for how they look like baldness is a thing that comes to mind quite a bit, but it said such. Better degree than what women go through.

And women are scrutinized at such like a intense level. And you're never the right age, right? Because when you're young, when I was a teenager, I was like, oh, you're jail bait. And then after that you are. Then after that you're 21. Oh, better enjoy it while it lasts. Cuz you're gonna be an old hag soon and after that you hit 30 and they're like, you're a hag.

And it's like, I at 40 and then at 40 you disappear. Yeah. And so, you know, I would say that from my pers. Whenever somebody's being really judgmental on the internet, I always try to think back to like, you know, it's like, what would me and my friends say? And I'm like, we do not talk like this. And like, I'm I, you, you gotta keep reinforcing.

It's like, it's either aging or death, so make your choice. Mm-hmm. . Um, I hope it's just aging because really at the end of the day, like. . It is a privilege to a degree because the one thing I will say is that in a country where there is no universal healthcare, how much of a privilege is it actually to age?

Because aging means that you have more health conditions and it is expensive, and therefore it is privilege to age truly because you need to have the money to do it. Mm-hmm. . So there's like a lot to un unpack there. But you know, from my perspective, and with aging, it's. It is something I think about. I don't like seeing my face change.

I don't like it when people say, oh, Charlotte, you look tired. Whenever I hear about my friends getting treatments or any like, you know, surgery or anything like that, it's because they literally say, I'm tired of people telling me I look tired. Yeah. Which is so depressing because they're like, I just want people to get off my back.

And so I, I think that that's something that, it's why I don't really do anything yet. I know a lot of people my age, I'm very young, but a lot of people my age. My skin tone are getting all sorts of things done, and I'm like, I just need to see what's gonna happen. Yeah. And it's almost like I use skincare, I use the things that I use, but I'm like, I just need to kind of see what's gonna happen because it is so much pressure and it's almost, um, it's almost untenable.

And I don't know if what the solution is other than like we have to stop looking at ourselves on our selfie cameras all the time.

Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it needs to be part of a, a bigger shift when it comes to this whole like, aging conversation because there's so much like vagueness, I think especially for women, like when we're asked about our age, it's like you p you play the guessing game like, well, how old do you think I am?

Which I'm like, oh my God, here we go. Yeah. Or like, especially amongst black people, there's always that conversation about like, oh, you don't look your age. Yeah. But I feel like it kind of plays.

Charlotte: Everyone looks exactly the age they are. Yeah. And that is personality. It's like people said, like I, I remember I once got this comment cause I was talking about microneedling and one comment was like, wow, I thought you were at least in your mid forties.

And then the next comment was like, wow, I thought you were 25. And I'm like, nobody knows what any age is actually supposed to look like. Right. ? I don't know. Nobody knows. I look 35 because I am 35. Yeah. Thank you. Conversation over and like, it is a backhanded compliment when you say you look good for your age.

Because the idea is, is that you should, you should, you're not attractive or that you're not beautiful or you don't have value when you're older. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Jess: Like

Charlotte: who really depressing. It's super depressing and I don't have a solution because it's like a cultural shift. Yeah. But I think part of it is we have to take the shame out of beauty.

We have to take these backhanded compliments out and we have to change. I change on how I speak. I correct people when somebody's like, oh, you don't look 35. I'm like, what's wrong with looking 35? And I make them a little bit uncomfortable that the next time they go to say that maybe they don't. Yeah.

Great comeback. It's meant to be. It's meant to be a compliment, but it's really. Yeah. Not because what I 35 is so young, or not even middle-aged, it's literally defined as Yeah. Well, yeah. What?

Jess: Uh, it's just all crazy. When I turned 30, it, and I'm almost 40, but when I turned 30 it was like, I kept, I started getting that like, oh my God, 30.

You know, like, I'm like, wait, am I supposed to look and feel like something other than I, I don't know. It was just like very weird. And, and now that I'm almost 40, it's like looking back and 30 is so young to, even for people to have that mindset that like, you should look a certain way or, um, it has a significance.

Charlotte: Exactly. And I just think it's really, she looks terrible for her ages. Like, I wanna, like, actually it makes me murderous in terms of like my, my, my rage because I'm like, you have no idea what this person went through. You have no idea what they lived through. Rights are. You have no idea what their socioeconomic status is.

You have no idea, like, honestly, aging in society when you're, it's brave to do it when you're in Hollywood. Like, yes. It's fucking depressing because you're literally just existing. And for Sarah Jessica Parker to just exist like the things people'll say about her on the internet, I'm like, y'all are gonna be old one day.

Get dumb dumb. I know.

Jess: That's the thing that, that's like crazy. It's like people just don't realize it.

Charlotte: and we grapple with it as a company because like, listen, like I want to, like, I wanna ease into things. I don't wanna like dive headfirst, like I don't, I want my skin to look the best that it can look and also be the most comfortable it can be because you know, when your skin gets older, does dry out and that's.

Very uncomfortable, but it's like, how do we not play into the fear of aging and make it more of an experience where it's like, this is the histological effect of what's gonna happen if you use this? Make a decision based off whether you want that or not. But it's not like your wrinkles are showing, erase them.

Like, yeah, that's not, there's a way that we can change how we talk about things because, you know. Fear of aging is not, you know, just for women. I mean, look at all the work that Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk have had done, right? No. Have they? Yeah. And they, I mean, not to pass ju like I say, I'm passing two past judgments, , but it's like, you know, I, I think that it's not, it's definitely not reserved for just women.

It's just the pressure for women and also the expense for women. And it's already expensive being a woman, and we make less. And you have children and your body changes and I'm like, can we get a break and can we not be mean to each other? Thank you. That's my TED talk. Yeah. Yeah. Here. .

Wendy: Um, so as dieticians we're, we're always being asked about like, what foods can you eat for like skincare?

And like, honestly there isn't that much research that I've come across when it comes to this. Um, have you come across anything related to like food or supplements? I feel like. Usually like dairy and chocolate for whatever reason, or like tied to skincare. I think maybe because like for people going through puberty mm-hmm.

um, you know, like they ate these foods and, uh, it triggered acne. I don't know. But, um,

Charlotte: you're allergic. Like I'm allergic. I'm, you're gonna feel so bad for me in a minute. I'm allergic to garlic. Oh, oh. Yeah, that sucks. Thank you for your, thank you for your sympathy. I started breaking out, um, and getting weird rashes and so I think that, like to say that there's no connection to food and skin.

I think it's, I think it's more, it's like, is your body like, like if you drink a lot, like I don't look good the next, if I go off on a weak bender, I look terrible, but that's okay. Like cuz I just look tired and I look like, you know, dehydrated because I am. And also there's probably just like my eyes probably just root as soulless, so that probably doesn't help with the whole aesthetic.

Yeah. . And so I think that there's things like that where it's related to it, but in terms of like supplements, . I find it really hard because people love their collagen smoothies and I don't wanna stop them from drinking. If you like it and if your source is okay and ethical and you're fine with the ethics of it, like do your thing.

But I think it's really hard to talk about, say, taking a probiotic for the health of your skin, because it's like that is such a complex mechanism, and if it was that effective, then probably a pharmaceutical company would have taken. That, taking that upon themselves. Um, and then you look at something like Accutane, which basically kills the oil glands in like your skin.

And it's very, very effective for deep, deep, cystic, persistent, persistent acne that, you know, Accutane is not for everyone. There are dangers associated with it. Absolutely. I'm not minimizing that, but it's, um, it's pretty incredible if it's used in the right way and in the right setting and in moderation.

So it's like, of course you can eat things that then have, um, a result on your skin. It's just, I don't know if I've personally seen something that has really done it. I think it's really hard when you eat something for your body to tell, to go to your skin. Like your skin is like your protective meat sac, right?

It's like it is a vital organ, but it's like not necessarily like, Gonna go there if like, that's what you take a supplement for. Like collagen, it's just protein. There's some research on Dyl Hydroxyproline, um, which is an amino acid, right? Like by peptide. And so there is some research that can help, but um, you can also apply it topically.

I think that. People are so obsessed with the idea of like, beauty from the inside out. And the reality is like, it's your protective meat, Zack. Like, are you gonna try to like fix like the outside of your car by putting something inside of it? Like, no to like pass through all of that. It's like, no, you just like clean the outside of your car and you sh find that up.

And so it's like, that's how I kind of see it. Or I'm like, just, it's the, it's the shell. Like you can fix the shell from the outside. Yeah.

Jess: That makes perfect sense. So in terms of safety, Of these skincare products, and especially as you mentioned in the US, things sometimes can feel a little more lax, like something's banned in Europe, but it's fine here.

Um, Is, what are the things that we should be looking out for? Is there a website that you recommend checking?

Charlotte: So I will say that there's a lot of misinformation out there. Um, sites like the E W G are not very reliable. They tend to take data. Um, and I'm sure you notice this with food as well, with the dirty dozen.

Um, but they cherry pick science and either you, you either go by, or you're a pseudo scientist, and when you cherry pick science, you become a pseudo scientist. And so for me, I'm not a scientist, but this is the one thing that every. Every scientist has told me and dermatologist and anybody that works in stem, it's like either you use science to help you form an opinion or you have your opinion and then you're trying to use data to back it up.

Mm-hmm. . And when you're in that realm like that is a very scary realm to be in. So, you know, the E W G I do think they do. Some good things in terms of environmental protection and like, you know, I, I, I believe that they were a big part of the modernization of Cosmetics Regulation Act, which is creating more standards within, um, the F D A to have things more codified because the law in the United States, they, you have to have a safe cosmetic.

That definition is very too broad for my, my taste. I think we need everybody to fo follow good manufacturing practices that, um, contract manufacturers where you make these big scale products. Like they have to be registered with the F fda a if there's a problem, the f FDA has to be able to go in there.

Like there are things like that that should be done. And that has just been pa it actually just got signed into law. It's called Mara. Um, By Biden, um, on December 29th. What's interesting though is that a lot of these organizations and a lot of these beauty companies aren't applauding the F D A for taking these steps, which makes me feel like it's just marketing for them because I'm like, wait, we finally have progress?

And it's like crickets. And I'm like, cuz it doesn't help you sell your mascara. Um, and so I don't love apps that assign toxicity ratings to things because when you actually look at the citations half the time, it's like, okay, the study is a rat that. Did like a hundred gallons of it and I'm like, oral ga when youk, uh, a being with an ingredient is very different than me applying two pumps on my face.

Yeah. Totally. And so endocrine disruption's a bit harder. I mean, I, y'all probably know far more than me on like food and all the stuff that people get really worried about there, but it's like, I remember the whole soy debate and like isof, flans and things like that. It's like those are endocrine receptors, but it doesn't mean good or bad if you look at kind of like the overall effect, et cetera.

And then it's like you look at skincare, people talk about endocrine disruption and I'm like, yeah, but all these brands are using soy and isof flavin. So like how? Like what are we talking about here? And is. The thing from you is safety is like, is somebody trying to sell me something and are they trying to scare me into buying it because fear is an incredible motivator to get me to buy.

Or have they really done the work to make sure that their product is more safe, not using things like nature fallacies. Just because something is natural does not make it safe. It does not. Right. Thank you. Mercury is natural. Mercury is natural. I don't wanna eat mercury. I'm good. Yeah. Don't wanna. Either.

And so I think that that's kind of how I approach safety and, um, understanding that, you know, um, regulation is getting better. The reason why regulation in Europe is better is because they do a lot of pre-market vetting. Mm-hmm. , whereas in the us, like, I can go and sell my products on Etsy tomorrow. I can go sell it on direct to consumer site tomorrow.

Right. Like, yeah. It's just, there's more gray areas and so what I would say is, The best way to find safe products is just ask them, are you like, where are you manufacturing it? Are you using good manufacturing practices? Do you have a lot in batch number? What is the expiration date? Have you done any stability testing?

Are you using preservatives? You want preservatives? You want preservatives, , because mold is really, can be really scary,

Jess: right? Yeah. It's always like, yeah,

Charlotte: like that. Things

Jess: like that. So you're saying there's no website to go to to.

Charlotte: Okay. Um, you can go to the FDA's website and see what they're recalling.

It's always untrusted. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Um, I would say like, the thing is like, there's e W G, there's yucca, there's skin deep, there's safe cosmetics. I've gone to all of those and like half the time I'm like, the studies that they use as citations aren't even related to the product or the ingredient. Hmm. So I'm like, that's a bunch of bullshit.

And then they say things like, things are banned in. And then I go and I'm like, it's not banned in Europe. It's just a prescription drug just like it is in the United States. Oh, wow. And parabens are not banned in Europe like justice for parabens. Okay. Long chain parabens are banned and those are increasingly being phased out of skincare in the US and they do think they should be taken outta skincare in the us but that's like saying that soy should be banned rather than like some like derivative of So, Right, dangerous.

We need to stop collapsing things and taking the nuance out of things cuz you're scaring people. And then they're izing that and they're sharing that gospel different cause they're trying to protect their community. And so I don't think, quite frankly, I do not think that clean beauty brands fully understand their ramifications.

I don't, I don't think that anyone's malicious in doing this. I think you start in this because you have good intention. I fully believe that, but it's like now that we're seeing the ramifications, like we need to roll it back. And I think the EWG needs to undo a lot of the harm that they've done and a lot of the fear that they've put into people without actually providing more safety.

Wendy: Yeah. And also like some of these companies are making so much money by positioning themselves as like non-toxic clean beauty. And this translates into the food space as well, cuz there's like the clean eating, the, you know, whatever these ingredients. And it's the same thing. It's like, is this actually based in science?

Another big one is like, Sustainable. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a skincare product that's, you know, marketed as sustainable and it comes in like a bunch of plastic wrapped up. It's a huge box that can't fit through my door. I literally just got another package while we were and it's like, are y'all scamming people?

Charlotte: Because it's giving a. Yeah, and I think that that's all part of like the same like kind of story and the thing where I'm like, is somebody trying to sell you something or are they actually doing the work? And it's like, you know, I like to say that there is no such thing as sustainability and that kind of like table sets things, everything that you do and every.

Purchase that you make, that is consumption. So decide whether you really want it or need it, right? Versus trying to buy something just based off sustainability. But I am starting to see customers holding brands to account in terms of sustainability claims. I dunno if you guys saw that, that Glossier launched a deodorant today.

And it came in a plastic package with plastic refill pieces and everyone was like, wait, that's not sustainable. And the thing is, you can have that packaging, right? Say there's a refill system, so you have cost savings, but brands just can't say things are sustainable just because it's a refill, right? Um, and so that was really interesting to me where I was like, , you know, brands need to be more careful about when they claim sustainability because consumers are becoming aware much more quickly on the sustainability front.

Cause I think it's easier to understand than they are on the safety front. Right? Because we can talk about aluminum based deodorant and the fact that the guy that literally did the study that showed a small causal link between, um, aluminum per into perseverance and breast cancer, he literally was like, I wasn't saying that it causes breast cancer.

We need like a thousand more studies. To actually do that. He's like, I, he's like, it upsets me that people are selling products based off of this. Yeah. Yes. And, and then there's like, there's a whole industry because of this. Yeah. And so with alternatives, by the way, that haven't been tested for breast cancer.

So you like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's just what we keep going on this wheel of, um, you know, it's just, it's a great marketing pitch. The idea of don't trust the government. Trust us. The corporation we're, yeah. Yeah. And for whatever reason, it's a good way looking at it, it's really compelling.

It's like we're a small brand that's like the, and it's like half the time they have investments from like huge companies or they themselves are actually like, run by like big companies. And it's just like the most, um, bizarre value proposition to me. Cause I'm like, why would you trust a company that literally just needs to make money in order to, that needs to make money in order to survive.

Versus the government institution. And I understand people don't trust the government in many ways, especially medical institutions. You know, I am a white lady, so I have a lot of privilege, but like as a woman, like I had maybe like 15 years of like atrocious period pain that nobody believed. Hmm. I said it was normal, it's not.

Um, so I understand not always trusting the institutions, but I'm like, I also wouldn't go trust a company as somebody who runs. Yeah,

Jess: I mean, well first of all, the interesting thing about your company is I didn't even know it was your company. You don't really promote it that much. .

Charlotte: It's in my bio. It's in my bio.

Jess: Oh, ok. Well, like not on your page is the only way I realized it was your company, cuz Haley Bieber had said that the, the, um, the, what is it called? The moisturizer, but how. You know what I'm talking about, your moisturizer. Anyway, she had said that it was her favorite product and I somehow I saw that and then I go, I see it on your page.

And I'm like, oh wait, this is your company. Cool. So then I tried it and I, by the way, love it everybody, you have to try it. Um, it's bar b Barrier Relief or what? Sorry,

Charlotte: how do you say it? ? Instant Angel. Instant

Jess: Angel, okay.

Wendy: like

Charlotte: that.

Jess: I got it wrong, but. Anyway. I don't know my point, but yes, everything you're saying makes total sense.

I have one, um, question back to sunscreen. So how do you convince your partner to wear sunscreen or to do anything for their skin? Because, like my husband is just not here for it.

Charlotte: I mean, I always, the way that I, I've gotten partners in the past to like wash their faces. You think it's gross to not wash your body, but you avoid your face.

The thing that's exposed all day along to these New York streets, I'm like, you wanna bring the street into your pillow. That's weird. Right. Um, and also because like, they're like hygiene flag a lot like, cuz like they would like work out or whatever and they'd be like, need to like, you know, shower or whatever.

And I'm like, but you're like avoiding. This part, like the part that I have to be exposed to rude. Um, so that actually got them to start washing their face. And I think, I think with sense, like, I think with that it's just like simplicity. It's like a sunscreen's, a moisturizer. And when they figure that out, they're like, oh, then I'll just use them as a two in one.

And I'm like, exactly like you love a, you love a three in one shampoo, body wash. Does attack conditioner, like whatever, like they love like a collapsed thing. At least people that I've dated. Not everyone I've, I've dated a few people who are very obsessed with skincare and would just steal things from me.

Um, so I would say is like just doing that piece and then also it's like, do you like your face now? Okay. Using this will maintain the face for longer. Yeah. Yeah. The face that you have. Yeah. Good point. Um,

Wendy: so in wrapping, can you talk to us about this podcast that you were telling us about before you might be starting a podcast?

It sounds fascinating. Tell us more.

Charlotte: So my co-founder, Joyce and I are doing a deep dive look into the clean living movement because I think we really wanna understand the emotions and why things are the way they are. And so when you're looking at clean living, I think that. The way that we use it today, I do have to believe that people are using it with good intentions, but the actual roots of it are pretty nefarious.

Um, and it has to do with the ideas of purity, purity of the body, and there's like the ties to religion, but also the ties to eugenics and maintaining a clean population. Um, which stems back to, uh, John Harvey, uh, Kellogg, um, who is really kind of, I would say, the person that was one of the bigger proponents in this movement because he was a doctor and used.

To justify a lot of really fucked up ideals, and eugenics actually is using science to justify racism. And so looking at that, seeing how that actually built out a lot of our food policy in the United States, which eventually ultimately impacted the wellness and beauty industry, and really trying to kind of look at it from an empathetic lens, because at the end of the day, I am very much so of the mindset that the only way that we can change kind of the industry as a whole is if we create an open space where people can take accountability, maybe admit they were wrong, but we don't have to negotiate them.

This idea of like dragging brands like, you know, like, you know, just all the time is really exhausting. And why would you change if, when you try to change or admit that you're wrong, people are just gonna scream at you. It makes no. . And so for me, I really wanna see change within the industry. I do think we can have it positively be changed.

I love the beauty industry. Um, and so it's really about trying to take kind of like a holistic look at it and where we can go from here. And so the podcast we're calling it right now, like working title is like, do we have to, and it's like, do we have to, and then talk about, and then we're gonna do like a, an investigative multi-part series into, um, a singular topic.

And this one will be the Clean Living Movement.

Jess: I'm so excited. When does that drop?

Charlotte: I don't know. I just, we've written the first like, three episodes. Okay. So we're gonna be filming probably, um, probably in the ne probably in the next like three months. Um, okay. And maybe we will want to bring you guys on to help us talk about, Ooh.

Because we didn't get talk about food. And for me, the way that food has become like a pipeline directly for beauty language is pretty wild. Yeah.

Jess: It's really tough.

Wendy: Have you read Fearing The Black Body by Sabrina

Charlotte: Strings? No, but it's on my list now. . Yeah, you

Wendy: should read it because she talks about this whole eugenics movement and, you know, Kellogg and all this and like the history behind it and the beauty ideals, and it's more from like a nutrition and weight perspective, but this all ties in because it's, you know, the, the concept of beauty and how that's kind of changed, um, throughout the years and it's informed.

Charlotte: You know, whiteness and poverty was demonized by John h Kellogg. And, um, eating this way was actually to differentiate yourself from poorer classes, immigrant classes, all these things. And so when you, when you kind of understand the roots of it, it actually does make a lot of sense, a lot of the language that we use today.

But then it makes you very uncomfortable. And especially for me, somebody who like, even though like John h would've hated me, cuz I'm Leonard Brown. It's disgusting, but it's like today, you know, things have like, you know, obviously shifted quite a bit and it's like, you know, it's, it's really fascinating and really dark and there's so much that we, we need to change.

And so I'm hoping that by educating people we'll kind of open up that dialogue. Yeah. And people will be open to, to bringing that into their marketing, hopefully. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ,

Jess: that's great. Oh, what a fun conversation. I wish we had all the time in the world cuz I have so many more questions, but they don't like us making our episodes more than 40 minutes.

for producers.

Charlotte: say, I gotta

Jess: keep within that. Um, but hopefully we can have you back one day and ask kind of, uh, more follow up questions, but thank you so much. Uh, by the way, can you share, uh, more about where people can find you? Absolutely. Your, your company.

Charlotte: Um, so you can find me at Charlotte Parlay, um, that is the French word to speak, which as I'm sure you've noticed, I like to do.

And then my company is Duskin, so it's at Duskin, D I E U X skin. Thank you.

Wendy: Yay. Thanks. Thank you, Charlotte. Great. That

Jess: was so good. Oh my god. I have so many more questions, but I know you're keeping it

Charlotte: keeping at 1 0 1. I love your account so much. The post that you made yesterday. I just, you know, when you're like double tap on every slide and you're, oh.

I'm like, wait, I feel like this, but I'm like, I'm still gonna do it cause it feels good. . I, I had an, when I was a child, I was like, I was anorexic and I also had to go into, um, like a facility to, to gain weight back. And, uh, it's.

Wendy: So Samaria, you're a trichologist and this entire time I thought it was Tri and then I was on your Instagram and I was like, wait a minute. It's try . And I like, I always, when thinking about Tri, you know, my mind went to Trix, like, you know, Turning tricks.

But anyways, um, what is a psychologist? Because I, I don't know that I understand still what it is. And what does your day-to-day look like?

Samaria: Yeah, so actually the word tr uh, trick, I guess T R I C H is Greek for hair. So a tri is one who studies hair. Um, we're typically seen as like a paramedical professional, so we're not medical doctors, but we're really working in the middle between dermatologists and cosmetologists to help assess and support clients through hair and scalp disorder.

Oh wow. Yeah,

Jess: it's such an interesting intersection. The RD registered dietician meets hair care. Mm-hmm. , how did you get into this line of work?

Samaria: So I think, you know, for a lot of people like the journey of like how we got to where we are today and like what we're doing, a lot of it involved a lot of personal story, and that's really my case as well.

So it really goes back to when. 15 years old. I was like one of those YouTube obsessed natural hair like product junkies. Um, so I like had my own YouTube channel. Um, I was trying all the DIY at home, um, product recipes, um, on YouTube. I did the big chop, right? I did all of these things. I was very. Very fascinated with this new texture of hair that was growing outta my head that I've never seen before.

Um, cause I got a relaxer at a very, very young age. Um, and so, This entire time I was, uh, I grew up on a farm, so I was going to school to be a dietician. I knew I wanted to be a dietician since I was in high school. So I was studying nutrition Wow. In high school. So all the time I was thinking about food nutrition, food nutrition.

I was experimenting with what I was learning in high school with my own diet. I was trying vegan diets, plant-based diets, all these different types of diets, um, while still on the side, you know, really enjoying, like creating my YouTube content. I had like a natural. In high school. Um, and it really wasn't up until like a few years ago, maybe four, four-ish years ago when I started to really see the connection between hair and nutrition.

And honestly, looking back, I see how all the different things that I was doing with my diet, Were like back in high school, were impacting like my, uh, was impacting my health and my hair. Right? Wasn't reaching like the hair goals that I wanted, you know? Um, and so about, yeah, like I said, about four ish years ago, I started to study.

I, I learned about triology. Um, I knew I didn't wanna go to school to be a dermatologist. Like I wasn't trying to go to school for like 15 years to become a dermatologist again. Um, but so I learned about psychology and I didn't know what it was. I didn't know that there was like this in the middle, uh, profession that I could study.

And so I studied it and coupled it with my nutrition. Um, My profession as a dietician, and honestly, I just haven't looked back from there. And when you think about it, like it, it makes perfect sense. There's not a, as far as I know, I've never met a dietician who also studies triology. Um, it's really not something I really presented with, you know, in school it's like, go be in clinical, you know, not really.

Um, work in the beauty and like hair loss space. But like I said, when you think about it, it makes perfect sense, right? Because what we eat is what our hair has to, um, grow off of. And so yeah, that's kind of like how I got to where I am, um, today. And I guess like on a day-to-day basis, like I do. Very similar work to what, you know, other dieticians do that are in private practice.

I am, um, you know, doing virtual consultations, in-person consultations. Um, Kind of similar, I guess, to what we might do as like the N F P E, like the nutrition focused physical exam, but more focused on the hair and scalp. So I'm looking at the hair and the scalp under a microscope. Um, I'm assessing the hair strand.

Um, and a little bit more in depth in the consultation around, uh, conditions and health symptoms that, that are maybe pointing back to the root causes of the hair loss condition. Um, and like I said, most recently, I. went to hair school and became a licensed natural hair stylist. So, uh, in addition to the assessments and the consultations, I also, um, do hair and scalp treatments as well.

So for my clients that I'm working with long-term, helping support them internally with the nutrition interventions, but also, um, Helping relieve them from them, their symptoms, um, temporarily with hair and scalp conditions, uh, with, with hair and scalp treatments, helping support them, you know, so they feel good when they leave the chair with like different hair styling options, um, and things like that.

So I do a little bit of, uh, kind of, uh, everything. My, my day-to-day looks different on, um, throughout the week, but I really like it that way. Um, not so I'm not doing the same thing, you know, every single day. That is so cool. Right? I

Wendy: mean, , I think it's like, it's such an interesting merge, but I do think that it makes a lot of sense because we have so many people that ask us, sorry, there's like a truck honking.

Hold on. Wait passes, . Do you guys hear that? Mm-hmm. . Yeah, I

Samaria: do. It's not loud, but yeah. Oh, I can hear it now. Okay. I think

Wendy: about, because we have so many people that ask us about nutrition as it relates to hair care, whether it's about supplements or like what foods you should take and like, We always just look at people with blank stares because we're completely clueless about this stuff, and that's why we're so excited about this interview because we have so many questions and our listeners have so many questions.

So I wanted to start by talking about. Just like basic hair care and what that should look like. Like mm-hmm. , I know there's a lot of information about how often people should be shampooing. Um, I've heard, especially for people that have like very coarse textures that, you know, maybe you shouldn't be shampooing, maybe you should, um, mostly just be conditioning so that your hair doesn't dry out.

So what does that look like? Um, at its core, just like basic heritage,

Samaria: Yeah, there's so many. There's so much, like I said, I was, I was one of those people on YouTube university, you know, learning from all of the, the influencer of what we should do. Like remember co washing, everyone was co washing. Uh, so I totally like, understand that there's a lot of.

Noise. It's similarly in the nutrition field. A lot of noise right around like what we should do. Um, but really for a, a solid hair regimen, I really think that less is more. So really kind of getting back to the basics of, uh, cleansing. So making sure we're having a cleansing shampoo. I. Like co washing sometimes.

Um, but I think when we co-wash too often, we're not cleansing. It's kind of like washing your dishes without using soap. Like we would do that. Um, and so in the same way, we need to clarify and really cleanse the scalp, but I do also understand how it's using some of those like, um, harsher shampoos can dry out the, the kinky, curly hair.

So that's why I always recommend my clients to use an applicator. Right. Um, you know the color applicator bottles with Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So use something like that. So, cuz if you think about like, you know, big Afro curly hair when we're putting shampoo in our hands, rubbing it in our hands and then rubbing it on our hair, it's not really getting to the scalp.

It's really more so, you know, we're putting it onto the hair. And so, Using applic applicator bottle can really get the shampoo to the scalp where it needs, um, to be so that you can really clarify and cleanse it. So I love a, um, I, I think a clarify, clarifying shampoo should definitely be in a regimen at least once a month, especially if you're using butters, creams, oils, things like that.

You wanna get that up off of the scalp, um, on, on a regular basis. Um, a good exfoliant can be a part of a, um, a healthy routine, um, to exfoliate the scalp, give up, get up some of those dead skin cells. Hydration. So water, um, any products that contain like hyaluronic acid, um, like alovera juice, I love that.

For hydrating, we wanna make sure that scalp and the hair stay hydrated. Um, and then as far as hair care, Um, products that contain proteins can be helpful for repair. So if you're having colored hair, if you have hair that you're straightening often, um, or even hair that you are manipulating often, um, sometimes that outer layer of the hair can become damaged.

And so using protein, uh, uh, products that have proteins added back into it can, can be helpful to repair, um, that barrier. Um, so I think those are probably the, some of the basics that you really wanna make sure you're covering, um, in a, in a regimen. So, Okay.

Jess: That's very helpful. And I'm wondering, there's so many products to choose from.

Yeah. A couple things. So first you mentioned exfoliator. Mm-hmm. , how does that work

Samaria: with your hair? Like, what is that? Mm-hmm. . So, um, again, this like you're gonna want to use a app. Some type of applicator bottle and, and honestly, most exfoliating products for the scalp come in the applicator bottle cuz we're not exfoliating the hair.

We, we really want to treat the scalp and. I really like to focus on scalp care because healthy hair grows from a healthy scalp. Um, and I think sometimes we just kind of forget about it cuz it's just covered up with our, with our hair. But we really do need to focus on improving, um, our scalp. So an exfoliant would look like, um, it might have like salt.

in it, or sugar scrub or um, any type of physical, any type of physical exfoliant. Um, or it might be a chemical exfoliant like salicylic acid or glycolic acid, um, or things like that. So I'm taking notes for myself cause I'm sending all this,

Jess: um, . Okay. So, and how often should you do that? Um,

Samaria: that will depend on the scalp condition.

So if someone has like a, you know, a RIC dermatitis or like, um, excessive flaky flakiness on the scalp, they might need to do it more often. That may be on average, maybe like once a month, you can, you know, okay. Incorporate that into your hair care regimen. Okay? Mm-hmm. ,

Jess: let's talk about conditioner, because sometimes I wonder, do as much as it says that it does.

Mm-hmm. and also. How many do you need? Because it's like the leave in and then the pre leave and then the treatment, and then the mask. Like what are your thoughts on

Samaria: all that? Mm-hmm. . Um, I, I definitely think that conditioners. Our important part of a regimen, especially when we're using shampoos to cleanse the scalp back so they can be really drying.

So you do need those conditioners to add back moisture, like I said, if it's a cosmetic conditioner, um, add back proteins and things like that to the hair. So, um, It's important to look at the label to see, okay, what, what's in this product? Is it mostly water or does it have shea butter in it, or does it have, you know, different creams in it that are going to moisturize and rehydrate the hair?

Do you need like, so many of them, um, All at once. Probably not. But it is helpful to have different types of conditioners in it for different times of the year. Mm-hmm. , um, if you like, say for example, if you just took out like a, a style that you had in for two months, you might need a more hydrating conditioner.

A. Thicker conditioner, you know, during the summer you might want a thinner conditioner. Right. So it, it is helpful to have different ones to choose from, you know, in your product cabinet. But I wouldn't say it'd probably be all of those at one time. Especially, I mean, especially with certain types of texture, it could be really weigh your hair down.

Hmm. Okay.

Jess: Mm-hmm. one really, um, quick follow up question on that. So you mentioned shea butter and certain products. Are those products you want in your hair? Conditioner. I'm gonna go back to the Diva Chan thing, or Diva Sean. Help me say it cuz I've been, when I used to live in New York and even before 22,000, I don't know, six.

Like I wrote an article and I, um, interviewed the founder of Diva Chan and she talked about like her thoughts on curly hair and how you don't want oils for, if I remember correctly, it's so long ago, you don't want oils. Your hair care, because then you're actually not moisturizing, if anything, you want the oils to coat at the end.

What are your thoughts on that? Because I know a lot of black people use all the shea butters and the oils, but is that actually getting into the strands?

Samaria: Mm-hmm. ? Yeah, so I do, I I've heard of that a lot. Like you don't want to use oils because that, it does make sense, right? If we're using. Oils that are, have large particles, then they're just coating the strand of the hair.

And then the hydration that you're putting on top of it is not being able to penetrate. So it does, that does make sense. So I think that's when it, we need to think about like the order in which we're doing things. Mm-hmm. And then how much you're putting on there, how often you're putting it on there. Um, so you would, we would wanna hydrate and then seal.

Mm-hmm. . Um, you might not wanna use shea butter. It might be too heavy for your, for your hair strand. Uh, you might want to use it as like a treatment and then, you know, wash it out. Um, but I do know, you know, quite a few people use shea butter and it's been a, you know, a tradition in African cultures for years, you know, centuries so, I personally don't use a bunch of Shea butter, but some of the products that I, that I do have, she butter like whipped into it.

Um, and I'll usually use a small amount of it, like indefinitely towards like the ends of my hair. Like that's not something you really want on your scalp. Okay.

Wendy: Sorry, we're taking notes. Yeah. Josh, did you, I don't know if I missed this. Oh, okay. Yeah, I did. I don't think I hear. Okay. So Josh, we can edit that small part out.

So how often should you wash your hair? Because I've heard everything from every other day, which is what my mom does to, uh, every month . So does it depend on the texture?

Samaria: Yes. It depends on, um, you know, I know people always hate it when you say it depends, but it really does, like, you know, we're just so individual.

But I would say probably. every seven to 10 days, max once a month is, is not, uh, I mean, that's not a lot at all. And I think that's when we really can get into a lot of like scout issues, things like that. Like build up. Um, I like anywhere between like seven to 10 days, like cip. If it's someone who has like a lot of, you know, scout buildup or they're using a lot of products on their scout, um, or someone who's like sweating a lot.

Um, Or work in environments where there's, they're exposed to lots of debris on their scalp, probably need to, you know, shampoo it a little bit more often. But for the average person, I think every seven to to 10 days is a pretty good, um, regimen. . Okay.

Wendy: That leads me to another question because with these protective styles, and I'm gonna use air quotes, I feel like they're not very protective for me.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . And actually, like a lot of my hair falls out when I do these braids. Even when I get like, , just corn rolls with my own hair. It's like a lot of my hair falls out and I know that, like I've spoken to hair stylists and stuff and they're like, oh, well that's what would normally come out.

Mm-hmm. , if you, you know, like it's the accumulation basically over several weeks and mm-hmm. , you know, but it's not for B it's like chunks of hair. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I don't know, now that you're saying all this stuff about, wait, there's like an echo. Are you hearing that Jess? No. Hmm. Okay. So now that you're saying, you know, this information about the buildup on the scalp and like, you know, I think for most people they're, they're probably not gonna be washing their hair if they have braids in there, so.

Mm-hmm. , what are your thoughts on this? Like, is our protective styles actually protective? Especially like, you know, the braze, the corn rolls, like things like, Even the weaves, because the weaves, you're just, you just have your hair, you know, um, like braided up and then, but you're not washing it, uh, you know, every seven days like you said.

Mm-hmm. .

Samaria: Mm-hmm. . I don't even know where that term came from, protective style, because I mean, I don't even know if they're even as protective, you know? Yeah. As in. , you know, some of the stuff we've seen on social media with the wigs and the wig, lou and the braids, I'm like, there, there's no way you know that these guys could believe that these things are really helping, helping your hair.

Um, so. I would say there's like a scale, right? Some of them are more protective than the others. And then it also comes down to technique. Who's doing it, how are they doing it? Um, in your specific case, when you're talking about the cornrows e you're just getting it braided with your hair. Um, I think, I think there is some truth to, you know what some of the Silas you were speaking to said, because typically hair you shed about 50 to a hundred hairs a.

So if we are going seven days without, um, you know, detangling the hair, you would expect somewhere around like 700 hairs to come out at one time, which can look like, you know, clo chunks of hair. I would say if you are noticing like, like a lot, like decreased density, is that what you're noticing? Like after you take out your, your hair or are you noticing like bald spots.

Wendy: I, I noticed definitely some thinning, like around mm-hmm. the edges. Yeah. Um, and then there's also like, you know, my toilet looks like there's an animal in there because there's so much there. , , it's like, it's a lot, you know? And I know because like when I wash my hair every week, I have some hair. comes out.

Mm-hmm. , but it's, it's a little bit, it's, you know mm-hmm. , it's maybe like a little, like a little ball of hair, but I'm telling you it's like a lot. Yeah. Like it's a little scary.

Samaria: Yeah. Well, yeah, if you're definitely, if, if you're noticing like just decreased density, like if you're noticing like that much hair, then it probably is like that style, it wasn't the best for you, you know, even with like the small braids, like we think that it, like, to us, it doesn't seem like it's pulling, but for a tiny hair strand like that can be really, really heavy, especially over long periods of time if we're not ha you know, having breaks.

And then also with. Hair textures, some hair textures are a lot finer. Um, and they really can't take that much, um, of the extra weave and, or even the pulling, um, from the different protective styles. Most definitely protective styles where, you know, the hair is covered for, uh, you know, two and three months.

I've even seen like some people off like braiders, like offer. Touchups like after, oh yeah. After three months. And it's like, no, we should be, we should be offering to take them down. Like three months is a really long time to not have your hair shampooed and detangled. Um, and so when you start to take those braids down, you've had them in for three and a half months, there's gonna be a lot of shed hairs, which can lead to those shed hairs.

you know, causing really lots of knots and tangles. Um, cuz we really do want to be detangling our hair and getting out those shed hairs on a regular basis. So I, I don't know. I have a love-hate relationship with Protective South. I know they're super easy, you know, we love, we love them, but, um, when we start to neglect the health of our hair, uh, you know, over these protective styles, then you know, we really are doing more harm than.

Yeah. Yeah. And then

Jess: people are so tight with the, with the braids. I go in and I'm like, I want the braid falling off. The strand loose. Yes. Like, I want it just slipping down. It looks like I've had it in for six months. And they're like, oh yeah, I got you. And it's like, my forehead is like, face facelift pulled back,

I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I need to be able to bend my head over and not

Samaria: feel anything.

Jess: But, um, yeah, I'm one of those with this very fine hair and I made the mistake of thinking I could get my hair braided this summer and pretty much all my hair fell out and it was a density thing and people were like, no, your hair is full.

It's not, it just is an optical illusion. Mm-hmm. , it's like this, it's like a straw thin if it's wet, so. Mm-hmm. , I'm still trying to figure out like, can I get my hair

Samaria: back or is it just over? Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely a journey. Like I, I experienced that after like this very traumatic styling experience, um, last year.

And I mean, I feel like I'm still getting back on track, you know, in getting my hair back because it's, the hair cycle takes about three months. So like, it, it really is a long-term journey of restoring your hair after, you know, experiences like, Okay, because

Jess: it's been more than three months and it's still not back.

Oh, . No, it's been like

Samaria: six plus months. Right? So, so three months. Your hair, your hair grows about, um, about an half of an inch to an inch per month. Okay. So if it's been six months, say your hair maybe has grown back like three inches. But even

Jess: much, what's growing? Right? Even what's growing back, and, sorry, not to make this like about me.

it's okay, but even what's growing back is thin. Mm. It's almost like it took everything out and damaged the molecules too. Mm. Because it's not actually. , I think I might have to just shave my head and start over. Do you ever recommend that to people? Like you just need to start over, girl, or do you think it can be a slow process and like transition with, um, with trimming and things like that?

Mm-hmm. ,

Samaria: I have not recommended that. To both people. I mean, because I don't know a whole bunch of people who would actually do that. Um, but I think that like, then we'd probably need to look at your, the scalp. Like is it inflamed? Like are the follicles inflamed? Is that why the hair that's growing back not healthy?

And if so, work on some anti-inflammatory, you know, topicals in in internal as well. .

Wendy: Mm. Okay. And like with these styles, how long do you recommend keeping them in? Because like you said, um, you know, oftentimes the goal is like a few months mm-hmm. and that's almost like a marker of like how good the braider is.

It's like how long you're able to keep them in. Yes. yes. And, um, you know, should it actually. Maybe like three weeks. Uh, yeah. Like how long should you be keeping in

Samaria: these styles for Yeah. This is such a difficult conversation because like these styles, I mean, they take y you're there all day long. Right.

You know, and it, and they cost a lot of money, right. It's, it took a whole check to pay for it, , you know? And so it's like to say four weeks is like, oh, absolutely not. Like I'm not gonna take this down after Yeah. You know, after just four weeks. But I really think about. three to four weeks is probably, you know, as long as we need to be keeping in, um, some of these styles, especially again, if they're styles that we can't get to our scalp, we can't, um, you know, massage our scalp and cleanse our scalp.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. and, and then, you know, like the knotless sprays are something that's really popular these days. The knowledge phrase, it's really hard to shampoo them and still keep them looking good, you know, because they, they slide and so a lot of people don't wanna shampoo their hair with them because they makes them look frizzy.

Um, so yeah, that makes it difficult too, so, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that

Wendy: makes complete sense. Um, Yeah. I mean, I'm ready to take 'em off after two weeks if I'm being honest. Yeah. But then I'm like, damn, like you said, I'm like, I just spent all this money. Mm-hmm. like all this time. It's an investment. Yeah.

Jess: Yeah. And nowadays the prices,

Wendy: they're outta control.

Yeah. Well, and

Jess: I get it because people are, they're spending their whole day Yeah. Braiding your hair essentially. So I understand, yeah. That they have to make a fair wage. It's just tricky when you can only. in a healthy way. Keep the mm-hmm. , whatever style in. Two weeks, and it's like, well, is it really worth it?

For me, the only protective style is like the bi Felicia braids. , where you're just like braiding your own hair. Mm-hmm. , um, and just look, letting it, you know, do its own thing. Yeah. And have that in for. Yeah. I don't even know how long. Like maybe

Samaria: a week.

Jess: Yeah. And that feels actually protective. Mm-hmm. ,

Samaria: any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I, and that's what I was gonna say, like it's, again, the whole conversation is hard because like, we live in America and there's a beauty standard. Yeah. And you know, we wanna look a certain way. Um, But it's also like, we also want our hair to be healthy, you know? And I think, I really do think those are some of the most, most protective styles when we put our hair in two strand twists.

Mm-hmm. wear, wear those down or wear them in a bun, or you know, do some flat twists or some, you know, things like that. Um, cuz our, we're not pulling at our own, at our hair. Our hair is able to do its thing we didn't take all day. We have to spend a whole bunch of money doing it, so we can take it down comfort comfortably, you know, in seven to 10 days.

Um, I think some, those are really some of the best, but like I said, it is hard when we also have to, uh, We live in this space where mm-hmm. , sometimes those styles aren't seen as professional, you know, and so, yeah, it's, it's kind of hard to navigate. So I really just try to help people figure out like the best way possible to, um, kind of marry both, so, yeah.

Wendy: Yeah, that makes sense. That's a great point. Yeah. Cuz my favorite protective style are like the doodle twist. Mm-hmm. . But like I be looking crazy when I go outside with them . I'm like, oh my God. I try to like make 'em look a little better. Mm-hmm. like put on a headband or something. But it's just, you know.

But that's ideal for me cuz it's like there's not all this pressure pulling, you know, on the hair it's able to breathe. Mm-hmm. , you know, that's another thing too, I feel like with a lot of these styles, like your hair's not. Fully drying properly or like mm-hmm. getting, I don't even know if that's a thing, like if your hair needs oxygen, but for some of this stuff I'm like, there's literally no air going into the hair strand.

Is that even important? Mm-hmm. .

Samaria: Well, I will say for the, for the hair, no, because actually the hair is a dead tissue. So the minute it comes outta the scalp, it's a dead tissue. But it is important for your scalp. Your scalp is a part of your skin, right? So it definitely is important. So the styles where, you know, like you are, it's like dark and wet, and.

That's like breeding ground for bacteria interest. Um, and there's no, you know, oxygen there. So, absolutely. Like we d your scalp definitely needs it, but for your hair, no, your, your hair doesn't need oxygen.

Jess: Great point. That's so interesting cuz I'm, you know, thinking of the wigs too. Mm-hmm. , it's like, oh, maybe that'll be a transition.

but I, yeah, I feel like the best protective is just your own hair.

Samaria: Mm-hmm. ,

Wendy: kinda .

Samaria: And maybe

Jess: it's a marketing scheme, who knows at all. Its so, okay. Medical conditions. Cause I know that is your area of expertise. And I think also, I will say full disclosure, one reason probably why my hair feels thinner too is because I'm going through, um, primary ovarian insufficiency, which is basically like early menopause.

And so I think that that definitely, uh, and, and thyroid, uh, disease as well. So I'm sure those have an impact that I'm just now seeing. But, um, can you talk about that and any other medical conditions that might

Samaria: affect your hair? Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So, um, hormones, . Absolutely. So your our, our hair is very, very sensitive to any change.

I don't preface this by saying that our hair is a non-essential tissue, which means that our body doesn't require it to live. And I always say like, like we feel like we would die if we didn't have our hair. You know, we like, that would be the end, the end of it. But we, our body doesn't really need our hair to survive.

Right? So it's going to prioritize. , all of our other, you know, functions overgrowing hair. Although the hair requires a lot of energy, it's one of the fastest growing tissues in our body. It requires a lot of energy. It's very low on the totem pole when it comes to the, uh, priorities. So any, any types of changes in hormones are, are definitely going to impact the.

The hair strand. So menopause, um, that transition, right, because there's a decrease in estrogen. Um, a decrease in progesterone, and those are, can be very protective of, um, the hair follicle estrogen can help extend the antigen phase. The antigen phase is the growth phase. Uh, so estrogen can help extend that phase Progesterone.

Balance out the effects of, um, D H T. So, d h t is a hormone that attacks the hair follicle and, and causes the process of a miniaturization. So, you know, with, um, you may have seen it in like, uh, like women who are going through menopause, they start to like lose hair straight down the. That's typically seen as like female pattern hair loss.

And it's not like a drastic, like a drastic hair loss, it's a progressive hair loss. That's the process of miniaturization. So the hair underneath the surface, the hair follicle is being attacked by D H T. Um, and so each. Hair cycle, the hair grows back thinner and thinner and thinner. Mm. Um, so menopause, um, that hormonal hair, hair loss, female pattern, hair loss can, can, um, happen in conditions like P C O S because there is an excess amount of androgens.

Um, and so those androgens are converted to D H T, which then impact the hair follicle, um, thyroid issue. Most definitely because, um, thyroid is responsible for setting the pace, um, of all the cells in our body and. Thyroid, um, condition can definitely impact hair loss. Also, another, um, thing that we see a lot with thyroid issues is, um, like super dry, brittle hair as well.

Yep. Um, hypertension. Hypertension, um, it hypertension also hyper. Hypertension medications. Mm-hmm. can impact the hair loss. Um, we usually see it like right at the, the, the vertex, the crown of the head, um, postpartum for sure, because postpartum is a lot of things going on there. So there's like the stress of going through childbirth.

There is, uh, the changes in hormones. So during. While you're pre, uh, while you're pregnant, the, um, proje, the progesterone and estrogen that's sustaining the pregnancy are elevated. And like I mentioned, those hormones are, um, supporting the hair growth cycle. And so, I mean the, the, um, Yeah, the hair growth cycle, the antigen phase.

And so when, you know, after childbirth, those hormone, those hormones go back into its normal state. And so all the hairs that were kind of spared, that would've come out during the previous nine months. They then all come out all at one time. So then there's a postpartum hair loss due to the hormones.

There's like the, the loss due to the stress of you. Childbirth. And then there's also the changes in Nu nutri, nutri, uh, nutrition. So, you know, potential under nutrition there, um, that are kind of causing the, the hair loss as well. So there's usually a lot of things happening with postpartum hair loss. And then, um, gut issues can impact the hair as well.

Um, there is a link actually between, um, Um, I b s and, uh, alopecia Ariana. Mm-hmm. . Um, so there's definitely like some gut issues. Even if, you know, someone doesn't have ib s like just not properly digesting and absorbing nutrients that the hair needs can Yeah. Negatively, like, impact the hair, um, because the, the hair isn't able to get those nutrients.

So yeah, a lot of things that can kind of go on that can impact the hair. Fascinating.

Jess: Is there anything you can do to help, or is it just kind of like, eh, yeah, it is what it is.

Samaria: Yeah, absolutely. So that's, I mean, pretty much what I do in my practice is help people through these conditions to help them support their hair.

So what do you do, ?

Jess: Yeah. What's like, like whether it's nutrition, what are like maybe three key things people. Can leave with, that's like, either you're going through these things or you're just like, I want my hair to be strong and healthy.

Samaria: Mm-hmm. , um, gosh, there's so many different things, uh, depending on, you know, the specific condition, right.

Um, but I would say just like the basics of nutrition. So like, making sure people are eating enough food, uh, eating optimally. Um, You know, we live in a world where diet culture is running rampant, you know, and everyone is, lot, lots of people are undereating. Um, especially, you know, like women, like we're, you know, typically undereating and definitely undereating and protein.

Um, which the hair is made up of 75% protein. And so just making sure we're eating enough, like we're eating regularly, our body is not like going through, uh, phases of like starvation again. Sending signal to the body to not really optimize hair growth if we're, you know, starved for half of the day. Um, so make sure we're eating enough food.

And then usually, um, a lot of people ask like, you know, is there certain foods I need to eat for, you know, hair growth? Um, I mean, we can start to get into the, some of the spec specifics. Um, but usually eating a pretty solid like balanced diet with, you know, proteins, fats, carbohydrates, focusing on your micronutrients and color will usually do the trick.

Um, Taking excess of vitamins usually isn't necessary. There's not a bunch of research to support, like taking extra biotin will help your hair grow faster. It's usually, it's usually when there's a deficiency. Correcting that deficiency is when we, we see an improvement in hair growth. Um, so eating, like, make sure we're eating enough, like eating your, your nutrient needs, um, focusing on your macronutrients.

Your micronutrients, you know, color, all of those. And then, um, I would say probably just supporting your, um, your hair topically. So improving scalp health. Um, so paying attention to your scalp, giving yourself, you know, your scalp, a good massage, um, avoiding putting heavy products and oils and things like that on your scalp.

Um, and then, you know, after that, like seeing like a professional for for sure who can help get you like on the right track. So Love that.

Wendy: All right. Well we, we have so many questions that listeners submitted. Mm-hmm. So we were thinking about doing a fire round. Okay. Where we just shoot them at you and you try your best to answer them quickly.

We're gonna keep it snappy. You don't have to elaborate, . Um, alright. So I'll ask the first one. Does Rosemary oil work for hair growth? And what about other growth oils?

Samaria: Rosemary, yes. Other growth oils, diversity is still still out. Okay, so,

Jess: so you put it in your hair like once

Samaria: a month or so. Rose, rosemary oil.

Remember the scalp? We wanna put it on the scalp, not the hair, the scalp. So, um, Rose oil was actually researched, uh, against a, uh, very popular minoxidil air growth oil, and it actually performed. Pretty similarly. So like Rosemary Oil for this gap, all the other ones, I don't really, I mean, I dunno, there's not, there's not really a way to figure out like the potency of all the different herbs, especially the ones that just like, people just kind of throw all these dried herbs into oil and it looks cool like it.

Is that working? I don't know, potentially, but I know that Rosemary 2% has evidence that it works for him. Supports it? Mm-hmm. . Ooh. Okay. Hi.

Jess: Does hair porosity, am I saying it right? Porosity.

Samaria: Porosity. Mm-hmm. ? Mm-hmm. . Okay. Does hair porosity matter? Yes, to an extent. Um, yes to an extent, but it can change depending on like what you do to your hair.

So veracity is really just like the, the outer layer, the cuticle of your hair, like how porous it is. And it can change, you know, if you are, if your hair's really damaged, it can be more porous. Um, cuz there's more gap gaps in holes. Um, you know, if your hair gets colored, things like that, like it can change.

So. .

Wendy: Okay. Dandruff. There were a lot of questions about dandruff and what can help

Samaria: with it. Um, I like zinc, salic, salicylic acid. Um, changes in diet for sure can impact your sebaceous gland. Um, changes in regimen like we talked about. Are you even shampooing your hair enough or like, um, are you. The way that you're shampooing it, like so your technique, uh, tea tree oil can help.

Um, so yeah, those are some of my top ones. Okay. Does

Jess: collagen actually help with hair?

Samaria: So the hair is made up of collagen, however, is your body using the collagen that you're eating to support the hair growth specifically? We don't necessarily know because again, the hair is a non-essential tissue. So if your body needs collagen for your joints, it's going to take the, use the collagen there, or your gut versus, you know, putting it to your hair.

So, So is it good to

Jess: take collagen supplements or do you feel like there's not enough

Samaria: research to support yet? I think there's not a whole bunch of research to support it yet. There is one specific brand that, um, that makes a collagen product that they claim also has like, Receptors. Hmm. Or in it that is, that goes directly to your skin and your scalp.

So potentially more research and more products like that, that have, that are specifically targeted, um, with ingredients that will go to that area that's needed, um, might help. But just taking collagen supplements. I mean, if it doesn't hurt and you wanna do it, maybe, but is it necessarily the thing that's gonna support your hair growth?

I'm not sure.

Jess: Yeah, great answer. And I feel like it's all personal. I like the taste of the collagen. Mm-hmm. , well it doesn't have a taste. . Mm-hmm. . Um, so that's nice for getting some amino

Samaria: acids I guess. But yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you're already, if your diet is pretty low in protein, um, adding it is a really easy way, so, right.

Yeah. What about, oh,

Wendy: go ahead, Wendy. No, go ahead. Go ahead.

Jess: I was gonna say, what about parabens? What are your, and again, feel free off record, Josh, if we can edit, but what if you don't feel comfortable, but, um, that comes up a lot, like mm-hmm. , um, what are your thoughts on Parabins in. Hair products?

Samaria: Um, yeah, I don't know if I really have like a very thought through answer on it.

Okay, no worries. Um, yeah, I know it does have some research about like potentially, uh, being like endocrine disruptor, but I don't really know a whole bunch, so, yeah.

Jess: Okay. Don't worry about it. I'm gonna ask another one. What are your favorite go-to products for all the things that you. Mentioned because I think a lot of folks like me are like, I wanna buy, you know?

Mm-hmm. stuff that has these things that are studied.

Samaria: Mm-hmm. , are there brands you like mm-hmm. ? Yeah. So, um, a lot of people ask you this question. So I actually started like this thing on my Instagram where I'm doing like a main pick. , um, each week. So, um, I'll like be talking about like the products and I'll just like save them, um, on my highlights.

But I usually am looking for, like, I'm looking at the ingredient label versus like looking at the products specific, the product brands specifically. So, but I do have a few that I like. So like Taraji p Henson, she came out with the brand. Um, and I like her exfoliant. Um, it. Comb tooths on it so you're able to apply it directly to the scalp.

Um, Let's see. Um, girl and Hair is a brand. It was formulated by a dermatologist and it really, um, focuses on scalp health, especially when you are you, uh, doing different types of styles where you can't really get to your hair. Um, so I like girl and hair. Um, melanin hair care is, um, I really like their brand.

They have a really nice leaving conditioner. Um, and also shampoo that already comes with an applicator bottle, so you're able to apply it directly to the scalp. Um, it is a very like detoxifying shampoo. Um, this is gonna sound kinda weird, but I actually like teach, uh, trader Joe's. They have a really good conditioner.

I love

Wendy: that. . Yes. It's so hydrating.

Samaria: Yes. I love their conditioner and it's super, like the ingredients, they're just like a bunch of herbs and plants. Um, has a lot of like, really good slips. So, um, I like their conditioner as well.

Wendy: Yes. Their nourish spot. Yeah. And their tea tree one is also mm-hmm. too. Yes.

Samaria: Their tea tree one. Yes, yes, yes. And it's so cheap for such a big bottle, so Yeah, yeah, yeah. I

Wendy: know where I'm going this weekend, . Right. I know. I have to go there for so many things, including my conditioner. That's the only conditioner I use. And it's so cheap. So cheap. Mm-hmm. . Um, okay. I have one last question, and this is my question.

submitted by Wendy , um, because there's like, , I feel like there's so much pressure to have long hair. Mm-hmm. , especially for black women, like mm-hmm. , you know, you have to ha and it's hard because there's so many different types of textures amongst black hair and like personally speaking, my hair has never grown past a certain length.

It just doesn't. Mm-hmm. for whatever reason, and I feel like we need to. Talk about that and just, you know, have some honest conversation. Cuz I think there's a lot of these hair goals that might be unrealistic for many people because it's just like, you know, you have your own unique hair Yeah. Mm-hmm. and, you know, and your genetics.

So what are your thoughts on that? Because, you know, I'm sure you've had people come to you who are like, I want, you know, hair that's, uh, I don't know, like up to my butt or like whatever. And it's like, is that actually gonna happen? I don't know. ? Mm-hmm. .

Samaria: Mm. Or like the black girl, long hair type

Wendy: of, yeah.

It's like, oh, I don't know. That hasn't been my experience. Yeah.

Samaria: Yeah. And and I think with that we have to have like very similar conversations like that we have like as dieticians when we're talking to people like around like body. Uh, body expectations, you know, like what their body can do because like your hair, again, is a part of your body and your genetics definitely play a role in, you know, how long your hair grows, the texture of your hair, the, even the luster, the shine of your hair, right?

A all of that plays a role. Um, genetics play a role in all of that, and. I would just say like, good hair is really like the best that your hair can do when you give it all that it needs. And I think we, again, we live in world, especially with social media and things like that, like we're looking at everyone else and we're u like, we're, we're kind of using them as like the standard.

Like, Ooh, they have that, I want that, you know, or, oh, they're hair grow like that, so let me, let me buy what they, what they're selling, you know? Yeah. Let me eat what they're eating. Um, so that, or lemme take that supplement that they're selling because their hair looks like that and it look, it really could just be, because those are their genetics, right.

You know? Mm-hmm. , um, it really could, you know, it is not because of, you know, the biotin that they're taking or whatever. So, um, yeah, it, it really is kind of, A hard to a hard conversation because again, like we can't be ignorant to the world that we live in and what our clients are, um, exposed to. But at the same time, I really like have to help support them and, um, kind of counsel them through those feelings, um, to help them like see that.

Your hair is good just as it is. Like we're, we're, you know, there might be some things kind of going on internally, but we're supporting them and once we are able to like, um, get you through those things, like you have to truly believe that your hair is good hair regardless of what anyone else's hair looks like.

So, yeah,

Wendy: I love that.

Jess: Love it. Well, in wrapping, can you let our listeners know, our listeners know how they can learn more about you, the work that you're doing, where to find you on social, or if they wanna work

Samaria: with you. . Yeah, so, uh, my website is feeding the root.com. Um, I'm on Instagram at your hair nutritionist.

So I, um, post just, you know, fun educational content on there. Like I said, I do, um, main picks on Monday, so I share like my favorite product and why, uh, whether it's a hair product or like a supplement or you know, food, things like that. So, um, you guys can follow me there. and, um, I am licensed as a dietician in the state of Tennessee, so I can work virtually.

Um, but as a tri, I can work anywhere in the states. Um, so, um, if anyone needs support, you can find me at my website at www.feedingtheroute.com. So thank you. That was

Wendy: amazing. I learned so

Samaria: much.

Wendy: That's, that was fun. Thank you so much. Yeah, that was perfect. And they gotta figure.

Wendy: It's funny because for Halloween. Uh, one of our good friends, her daughter dressed up like you . So I got a problem. I gotta send you the picture because it was so cute and so cute and saw that like a lot of little girls have been dressing up like you. I'm like, oh my God.

This's adorable.

Tabitha: Aw yeah. I'm sorry. My dog is busting in here. Blackie, um, . It's real life. But yes, I taught so many kids, it, it warms my heart. Like when I see them, I just, I'm like, oh my God, they're so cute. And it just makes me so happy, especially with like tap time and their little outfits. And I know the parents who join so cute.

They're

Wendy: so cute. Oh my God. Well, today we wanted to talk to you a little bit about food and cooking. We know that you recently came out with a cookbook, so let's start off by talking about how food was like growing up. Were you always like drawn to cooking? Was your family big into being in the kitchen or was it quite the opposite?

Tabitha: In my family was huge on being in the kitchen. I was not . I didn't wanna be in there. I didn't care about cooking. Uh, my granny was a town baker. I didn't care about baking. Um, it, I didn't have time to be cooking, girl. I was a tomboy. I was outside, you know, climbing trees and catching bugs and, you know, in the, in the woods, like hiking and doing all kinds of crazy things, playing football with the boys.

I had no time for that. And so I used to always tell my mama and my granny, I don't need to know how to cook honey. When I, when I grow up, I'm gonna be a famous actress and I'm gonna have a, and I didn't know I was gonna become the person. . Yeah. It didn't happen. Yeah.

Wendy: So then, so how, where did the shift happen?

Like tell us about how you eventually did get into

Tabitha: cooking. So when me and my husband moved in together, you know mm-hmm. , uh, so about almost, almost 25 years ago, but about 24 years ago, um, we moved in together and I was like, oh Lord, I gotta feed this man . I don't know how to cook. You know? And so that's how I learned to cook over the phone.

I would call my mom, Andre and my aunts. They would tell me certain things on the phone, and so honey, in the beginning I messed up a lot of meals. I was like, oh Lord, this, this ain't right, you know? But trial and error and I got really good at it over time. So that's how it started.

Jess: Nice. And I know that it kind of all blew up for you,

Um, I feel like it was four years ago that you released that video about the T T L A sandwich at Whole Foods, which by the way, like after I saw that video I ran to get, The sandwich and I was like, oh, this is actually really good, especially with the Pickles, . Um, and then Whole Foods wanted you to be an ambassador and I feel like the rest was just kind of history.

We all can follow you and see all that online, but what did it feel like to go from an Uber driver to like almost overnight, just everybody knowing who you are. Like does that get overwhelming when you're out? Do people always come up to

Tabitha: you? You know what's crazy is this month will be five years. I did that video this month, five years ago.

Wow. December 30th. Um, and you know, it's, I mean, it's been five years of it. It happened really quick in that aspect from that video. But I've been in entertainment for over 20 years, you know, as an actress. And I was like, the thing that made me famous was eat the sandwich in my.

Jess: I feel like it's always like that.

Something so random.

Tabitha: This is crazy, you know, but, uh, it was, it, I. I've been in it to see it evolve into what it is now. But in the beginning when it happened, I was the lady eating the sandwich. People were like, oh, you the lady that was eating the sandwich in her car, you know? Uh, and then I had some loyal fans who had been with me from the beginning of it, like me cooking in my kitchen, and they were like, oh, that's tab,

Wendy: she, you know, be

Tabitha: cooking on her.

You know, her Facebook. And then some people would just call me, oh, you the vegan lady. Right? And then I was, I mean, I would embrace it all. It just was so much fun to just see like, oh my God, these people, you know, watch me eat the sandwich or watch me cook or taste food or try food or whatever. And then, you know, it, it, it never gets old to me.

Even now, I mean, now is completely. Those were the good days where I could, you know, before covid, before anything you, you know, you could see people in hug and laugh and talk and whatever, but now it gets a little crazy to, yeah, to go somewhere to even just, you know, walk through the airport or whatever the case may be.

It's, it's completely different, but I still love it. I'm still grateful. I feel like I built my brand from. And so when people see me, it's like a love fest. It's like a family reunion no matter who it is. They'd be like, damn. Like we know each other, you know? So it never gets old. I love it. I'm grateful for it.

That's good. You're better than I would be .

Wendy: I'd be like,

Jess: ah. I'm more introverted though. Are you an extrovert? It seems like you're extroverted. I

Tabitha: love people. I love. Yeah. Nothing about me. Is Ian Okay. . .

Jess: It gives you energy, like

Wendy: all the Yeah.

Jess: Which is, that's amazing. I need some of that energy in me. Um, how do you find a balance also with social media?

Because you're everywhere. You've completely blown up. You're on Instagram, you're posting all the time, and I know, and now your content is. , you have so much content. It's not just about food. You have, you know, your talks with your husband Chance, which my friend sent me one of those two randomly, like two months ago, and she's like, you have to watch this.

It's such a good episode. And I didn't, it was really good and insightful. Um, and then you just, I feel like there's a lot of life lessons, but you're giving so much of yourself. How do you find a balance

Tabitha: with all of it? Um, I do it when I want to. Mm. Right. That's good. Yeah, I don't feel pressure to post. Um,

It's kind of how I've always done it. You know, whenever I feel the need to share from my heart or when God places something inside of me and he says, you have to do this. I, I'm obedient and I do it, um, when I'm cooking, right? I used to cook live all the time, but now of course I don't have time. And so, but when I have a recipe or something I'm doing, I'm like, oh, you know what?

Let me film. In real time while I'm cooking for myself , or for my family, right? Because that way it's natural, it's organic, and it's easy for me. It's not like, oh, I gotta prepare to do this, you know? So I do it only if it feels right. And I don't do it just because, right? I don't care about numbers. I don't, you know, I don't look at that stuff, that doesn't do anything for me.

Um, and then, you know, when I want a break, I take a break. You know, so I just never allow it to consume me. Mm-hmm. , and that's balance. You know, I'm first right? I come first. So whatever feels well to me is what I do. If it don't feel well, then I don't do it. .

Wendy: I love that. I feel like I need to incorporate more of that because especially like when, for us, like a lot of the work that we do is in the online space, and so that pressure definitely exists and you know, even with the work that you're doing, I'm sure that it helps with like visibility, like.

For all of the new things that you have going on. And so you feel this pressure where you're like, oh my God. Like I kind of have to do it. And it takes away from the joy of just hopping on organically and being like, oh, you know, I, I feel drawn to like going in there. It's like, oh, well I kind of have to set the schedule for myself.

So I really like that approach. And it's really great that you're

Tabitha: able to do that. Yeah. We all should be in control of ourself first, right? And being in control of ourself allows us to be in control of what we do. or what we don't do, you know? Yeah. We owe that to ourself. That's how we stay balanced.

Mm-hmm. , we don't owe it to social media. We don't owe it to the world. We only owe it to ourself.

Wendy: Right. Yeah. And talking about balance, it would be so great to get some insight into like, how you find balance in your personal life. Like outside of, you know, like everything that you're doing and, um, the TV show and, you know, all, all of these things that you have going on.

How are you taking care of yourself, connecting with your family, um, just doing the things that you want to.

Tabitha: So it's again, me first, right? Start my day with me, end my day with me. Uh, and then of course family is my foundation. It is everything. Uh, I do like very normal everyday stuff that everybody else do , right?

So like yesterday we were at basketball game, then we were at a flag football game. Like after I left the studio, like it was like, okay, we. I love being a mom and I love being a wife. Right. My husband is a basketball coach. Uh, my son is an athlete. He plays basketball and now he's playing flag football. So we do it all.

Those are the things that I enjoy the most. Uh, and then coming home and putting my pajamas on chow and laying on the couch with my husband and watching, you know, a series or movies, especially during this time of year, I'm kind of starting to slow down a little bit to take a break for the holiday.

Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , uh, , but I also, as you can see, I'm in my hoodie cuz I just finished working out. So I start my days with workouts and even if it has to be a later start time for me, I'm like, you know what? I still gotta go in and do this for myself. Um, sometimes it's juicing in the morning cuz that's how I take care of me, right?

What, like this week I'm eating a lot of like raw foods, a lot of, um, alive food so I can feel more alive. I had a little bit of a cold like two weeks ago, so I still feel like a little raspy, so I'm like, okay, let me just put. You know, really good nutrients into my body and, and just take care of me. And, uh, yeah, reading and writing, journaling, all those things are, are ways I balance myself spending time with my dog.

I don't know if you got, if y'all are animal people, but listen, animals have this, um, purity about then. Mm-hmm. . So judgment with them, they are just all love. Right. And so we can learn so much from. You know, they also, uh, forgive instantly. Doesn't matter what they did, if they got in trouble, is the moment you say, okay, you come back, they, they don't care.

They, they all for the love, right? So just learning how to be even more compassionate to me is taking care of myself cuz that way I can help take care of others that way. But all of that is, it plays a role in how I love.

Wendy: Yeah, I love that. And napping too, right? Does your sweater say naps over? Is it naps over everything?

Big naps over here. Yeah, huge naps.

Tabitha: A nap. I'll, I'll be up at 5:00 AM but you better believe about two o'clock. I'm gonna hit me a little 30 minutes. That's right. . .

Jess: Yeah. You, I can't even function without a nap. And also the same thing with the animals. I totally agree. Yeah. My dog is my best friend, , and

Wendy: she

Jess: just makes my life so I, I get it.

And it just, it makes you so much. More compassionate to all things I feel in a way that you wouldn't have been before having an animal. Um, the other thing I was curious about, you mentioned you and your husband watch your shows at night. Like what are your guys' favorite shows to watch or what

Tabitha: series do you watch?

Well, right now we are on the, uh, like Tulsa Kings. I don't know. That's what I haven't seen that, that's, it's so good. It's on paramount. And it's new, so it's only on like episode four. And then, uh, last night we started watching, um, uh, Wednesdays. Have y'all seen

Jess: Oh, I started it too. Okay. So do you like it?

Tabitha: Love it. We're only, we watched two episodes so far, but I'll like, Ooh, this is gonna be good. So, uh, reasonable Doubt was what I was watching. It is, it is going off now, you know, but we binge watch it, you know, we watch it together, but if you haven't binge watch it, it's so good. , it's on.

Jess: Okay. On Hulu. Okay.

Taking notes cuz

Tabitha: I always am looking, I don't get to watch TV a lot when we do. When I do get to watch, it's like, oh, let's watch this. Like, let's take some time and like, watch this like we did. Um, the House of Dragons, uh, it's, it's just certain things that Sundays are our day that we can, you know, watch TV at night.

And right now, because I'm going into like kind of break phase, I got a little extra time at nighttime, so I'm like, let's watch some stuff. So, .

Jess: Yeah. It's always fun to snuggle up and watch something. Um, so you mentioned all these different things that you do. I'm curious, do you still cook or is that something that.

Now that you've made it big, do you outsource it?

Wendy: Girl, didn't you just see me some portello

Tabitha: steaks the other night?

you have a I do. We do have, uh, a chef that comes in and cooks because I travel a lot and so when I was on tour, my husband, they be eating junk if I ain't here. And I was like, Uhuh, y'all not gonna do that. So I do have someone who will come and prepare meals and make sure. everybody getting some balanced food and not ordering our everyday Burger King or stuff like that.

Cuz you know, my husband would be like, but it's an impossible burger. I'm like, no . But yeah, honey, I still cook. I cook Thanksgiving. I, girl, I I love to cook. Um, so yeah, I absolutely still cook.

Jess: I was wondering that too, for holidays. So do you host the holidays at your house? Okay. You don't get overwhelmed?

Tabitha: No, I've, I've done it for years. Okay. . You know, when I first moved to la me and my husband, we were, you know, we're young. Um, We've been here almost eight. We've been here 18 years. And so when we first came, we were like, in my group of friends that I met, I was the only married one. I was the only one with a child.

Cause you know, we started very young and so I was like, oh, so many of these people, like for my active class, they were here by themselves. No family, you know, they didn't know anybody here. And they're all from different places. So I started doing Sunday dinners every Sunday in our apartment, and I would just invite people from class and new people that I met that I knew didn't have family.

I'm like, y'all come to my house on Sunday dinner. So I've always cooked every Sunday I would do for years. Wow. Grew and I would always host Sunday dinners. Me and my husband. We would just do that. And so now of course, I'm so busy, I don't get to do Sunday dinners anymore. But we'll still have like a party and I'll cook.

Like my husband's birthday was, um, Thanksgiving weekend too. So I hosted Thanksgiving and then that Saturday, it was his birthday we hosted, and I did like a taco bar. And you Yeah, honey, I love, I love to entertain and you know, I'm like that, that the old grandmother love to see people eat they food like y'all like it, don't you,

Yeah.

It's just, you know, it's rewarding for my heart to like feed people and not just feed them with food, but but their soul, you know?

Wendy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . I love that.

Jess: So one thing that you cleared up for me was that you are actually making those meals in real time on your channels, because I always wonder that, I'm like, is this.

Yeah. Are you, are you literally eating this after you make it? Like you're saying, you're like, oh, I'm just in the mood for this wrap. I'm gonna make it now. Watch me do it. Um, which I think is cool because most people don't do that. Most people are like us. We're kind of planning out these recipes and having a shoot and I think that's probably what makes you so unique and people like it.

It's just very much in real time. Um, I'm curious, like what are two of your favorite meals to make on a busy day?

Tabitha: One or two? Oh honey tacos, cuz it's, Right. Yeah. Or a taco. It's super quick. Um, those are, those are like my go-to, like avocado toast, like it's quick. Those type of things. Um, yeah, those, those are like my go-to things or salad.

Of course those, you know, chopped salad. But my salads don't just be regular, you know, I be having everything in there. And lately I really love, uh, butternut squash. Mm-hmm. and I it up and I throw it in the air fryer, put a little bit of sunshine. And it has a nice crispiness, but it also has that softened sweet inside, kinda like a sweet potato, but it's healthier for us, right?

And so I put that on top of my salad. So I have like a little harvest salad with avocado and you know, cranberries and some seeds and it's so good. But. Yeah, girl, I, I'll throw something together real fast. Good , but just I can be clear. Whenever you see a video of me doing like a product, like I have to do a branded, branded content, that would be pretty much the only time you'll see me do a video that was prerecorded.

Okay. I do, if you, if it look like I'm eating right, then that means I just cooked it and ate it and, and edited it real fast as posted it, or I do it in so that I don't even have to edit this all done for.

Wendy: Yeah. And it all looks so flavorful too. And that's the thing, I think vegan food oftentimes is associated with vegetables, raw vegetables that are, you know, the flavor's just not all there, especially for black folk.

We want the flavor, we want the layers. And so what are some of your favorite ways to add flavor to your recipes? What are some of your favorite spices?

Tabitha: Ooh, honey, you know, I love flavor, honey. That's when people be like, you gotta put a little bit and I'll be putting right much. Okay. . I love garlic powder.

I love my garlic powder. Um, but even fresh garlic, when we chop it, fresh onions, it adds so much flavor to, to food, you know, all spice, turmeric, cumin, all those things. Like, you know, ginger is one of my favorite things, mango like, I love a little bit of sweet and a little bit of heat too. Mm-hmm. . Um, but I just love layering flavor as I cook.

And I'm very big on salt free. And that way you can layer as much as you want because it ain't no salt. So you just adding flavor without killing your meal. And so then afterwards, if we need a little bit of salt, I'll use a little pink kimaya sea salt. Things like that. But, um, if you see my, you know, I got my own seasoning sunshine, and it has all those things in it, from ginger to pineapple to mango to, you know, cumin and turmeric and it's just, it, it just goes on and on.

But it's just like vacation in a bottle, . But yeah. I

Jess: love it. So switching gears to your show, you have two shows, right? Tab time, and then what's the other one? It's

Tabitha: on food. Oh, it's contemplated. I did one se It's contemplated one season.

Jess: Okay. Okay. So with tab time. Mm-hmm. , can you tell us a little bit more about that?

I've heard you describe it kind of as like a Mr. Rogers, like a modern, more diverse and inclusive Mr. Rogers neighborhood for kids. It's a YouTube original.

Tabitha: Yes it is. It's a YouTube provisional. We're in our second season, uh, right now, and it is very much so, like a lot of people say modern day, Mr. Rogers Field.

Uh, but with me, of course, you know, as the host and it is all about teaching children how to love themselves and see them. And love others and see others while learning together. Right? And so we start every episode out in my garden. And so in the garden I have my best friend who is Avi, the Avocado. And so there's always something that Avi is up to.

That causes me to have a question of the day. And so like in the very first season, the, the question was how things grow. You know, Avi's trying to figure out how things grow and so then my wind chime, who is breezy when she chimes? That means it's time to go to the next. You know, place to answer the question.

And so we go on this journey throughout the episode and so we go into our imagination and that's when I become animated into this cartoon and we go on this special adventure trying to answer our question. And once we leave special adventure, cuz we meet all these different people. and uh, and characters in our special adventure, uh, segment that help us answer our question.

But the question continues right there. We have to get so many different answers cuz there's not just one answer in, in how we grow or. Any question that you have that's not just one answer. And so then we go, uh, to our lab where I have special celebrity guests that come in and they play different characters.

Right. Which is so much fun. Um, rel how LilRel how was my first guest on how we, how things Grow Episode, and he was former Sprouts and so he's teaching us through food, right? Through fruit and vegetables, how they grow, right? Sometimes things look ready on the. , but that doesn't mean they're ready on the inside.

Just like us. Sometimes we can look like a big girl or a big boy, but we're still afraid to do certain things or we may not have, um, we're not equipped yet to do the thing that we look like we can do, right? And so that way we learn. And then from there we go to craft time. And then I have children. And we do a craft that also helps us answer our question for the day.

And children learn from, from doing right. We all learn from actually doing things. And a craft is fun. And so whenever we are having fun or we laugh, , it helps us remember, cuz our memories are tied to emotion, right? So having a good time and doing something helps us remember. Um, so I'm, I'm depositing these amazing tools into the children.

And then from there we go into snack time, which is my favorite. And then we get to eat, okay? Mm-hmm. . And so I create a snack that also helps answer the question of the day. And I have my little friends that they are, are animated, that's Bernie and Starla, who helped me in the kitchen. And they always try the food, of course.

And then the snack is of course, always vegan. , and I never have to say that. It just is, it's a, it's a healthy snack to teach children how to crave healthier options. And then after that we go into story time and we tell the story of our day and how we got to the answer. And that's it. That's, that's the show.

And it is such a magical purpose, right? That's what it feels like. It feels like a magical purpose that God has a, has trusted me to do in, in doing a children's. , it came from being obedient to what God had put in my heart. And for years he kept telling me I had to heal the world. And I was like, well, Lord, I'm one person.

How can I one person heal the world? And then years later in prayer, he said, it starts with children. And so I was like, oh wow. If I could get a children's show, this can really help me with this mission. And so that's what I've done, uh, and I'm so grateful to be trusted with. And to be nominated for two Emmys and Right.

You know, be in season two. And it's, it's just, it's such a blessing. It is the thing that I am the most proud of in my career.

Wendy: That's incredible that you were able to merge your passion for food with TV and like being able to have this show that's so meaningful. And I know with children like, you know, and trying to get them to be more curious about food, sometimes it's like they either shut down or they're like, ew.

Especially with vegetables. So what do you think is helpful with. Kids to be a little more curious and trying foods that maybe they're not familiar with or that they're just like not open to.

Tabitha: I mean, if you watch the show, you'll see right When we do snack time, we create characters with food. Mm-hmm. , or we create fun things with food and we eat with our eyes.

So if you make something that looks like a monster, but it's really just apples and peanut butter and sesame seeds, you know, or sunflower seeds. It's, it's, and it, it is just something that kids are curious about. They're like, wait, it's a monster. I wanna eat the monster. You know, , , you create something that they have to use their imagination and that makes us more curious.

It makes us excited. And also if they do it themselves, when kids are a part of something, they feel proud and they also wanna. You know, my son hated anything green for a very long time. He hated it. And we got a arrow garden that's like the little one that you could sit on your countertop and it grows the different things.

And he grew his own lettuce, honey, he could not wait every week. He kept watching it grow. He couldn't wait to eat this lettuce. He never ate lettuce before, but because he grew it and he watched it, and he watered it, he nurtured it. He wanted to try it. So sometimes that's all it takes. Yeah. Is allow kids to be involved.

Right. And make it fun. Mm-hmm. ,

Jess: that's really good advice. Yeah. So in wrapping for adults, , who wanna add more plant-based foods into their diet, but they don't really know where to start, is there any one piece of advice that you

would

Tabitha: give them? Ooh, honey. Start with your why. Right? Why do you wanna do. Like, why do you want to incorporate more plants into your diet?

Um, if your why means something to you, then you will not make excuses, right? You will stick to it. You won't say it's too hard. You'll figure it out for me. When I started on a vegan journey, my why was life or death. I wanted to live. I was so sick. Um, and eventually, of course, my why changed many times why I do things.

And so I always tell people if you start there, then start with what are your favorite non-vegan foods? Try to figure out the vegan version of that so you don't feel like you're missing anything. Right. Um, and don't feel like. You're taking something away from yourself, think of it as if you're adding something new.

That's

Wendy: it. Mm-hmm. . I love that. Yeah. Like not feeling so restrictive about it. Like you're depriving yourself of something

Tabitha: that you enjoy. You're gaining something new. That's it. Yeah. Taking away, you're gaining something new. I love that.

Wendy: All right. Well this has been great. Um, tell us like, where can people watch the show?

Where can people get your book? How can they connect with you?

Tabitha: Absolutely. Um, you can watch the show on YouTube. On YouTube Kids app or on my YouTube channel, Tabitha Brown. Um, and I'm on all social media. I am Tabitha Brown and you can get my books anywhere. Target, Amazon, uh, all the places where you can buy books and.

Yeah, that's, that's it. . Yay. Thank you

Wendy: tab. That was perfect. Awesome. Thank you so much and good luck with the show. I will be tuning in with my nephew. Yes. .

Jess: I feel like I need to have kids just for the show, . Yes,

Tabitha: you have. So, cool. Well, happy holidays to y'all.

Wendy: Yes, thank you tab. All right, you take care. Bye. You too.

Take care. Bye bye.

Jess: I'm gonna exit and then we can. Okay. Okay. .

Jess: So in talking about relationships, um, I feel like the conversation usually centers around trying to find a partner or like making it work with a partner, but there's usually not much talk about divorce, and so that's what drew us to you because you focus on the voice and life after divorce. I'm wondering with the pandemic, how did that affect your practice?

Did you see a huge surge in.

Chaute: There, there was an increase in relationship counseling, right? Because now they're home for days on top of days on top of days with each other, and things that they were able to get away from, they weren't able to get away from anymore. Um, so a lot of couples came in just trying to better know how to.

Cope with difficulties or work through certain conversations or know how to best communicate, see each other, hear each other, understand how to press forward. So that definitely happened a lot more.

Wendy: Okay. But you didn't necessarily see a surgeon divorced?

Chaute: I mean, they don't come to me when they're divorced, you know?

Okay. They come to me when they're having the, the issues, and then they just say, you know what? It's not working. Mm-hmm. . So that's where I, I had individuals. Were going through divorces, they would come as well, but the couples were coming where, yo, something's wrong. Uh, this is not the way that I thought it was.

We, we really need some help right now. Yeah, that

Jess: makes sense. So I just am gonna jump right in with what everyone's wondering. How do you know when it's time to get a divorce? Or is there things that you can know or things you talk about with.

Chaute: Well, that's that. That's really it, right? There's tons of things for individuals that's happening within self, right?

And many times one individual is more disconnected than the other and it's not really being communicated. So how do you know when it's time? It's when you're sick and tired, or being sick and tired. Right. That's when you really know that I'm pretty much done. Um, it's when you're feeling like your voice is not heard, it's when you've lost yourself completely.

It's when communication, you are on different books altogether, or one's in the beginning of the book, one's at the end, and there's no way to come together, right? If there's any form of abuse, like emotional abuse happens and you sometimes don't realize that you're experiencing. Emotional abuse, right? So when you start to gain, like go to therapy for yourself, start to grow and realize some things, try and have conversations.

If it's just not moving forward, then this is when you see that the best thing for the entire family, right? Because sometimes divorce is best for the children, for everyone as a whole. So when you see that these types of things are, are taking. It's okay, you can move forward. Yeah. Time to

Jess: bounce. Mm-hmm. , I always struggle with the idea of sticking it out, right?

So I recently heard Michelle Obama talk about how she couldn't stand Barack for the first 10 years of their marriage and but the second. Half of their marriage, or I guess 20 years is, has been wonderful. Mm-hmm. . And we are often getting that advice of like, ladies, stick it out and it's gonna get better.

Do you feel like that advice is misguided or like how much sticking it out should you actually do? Because 10 years is a long time.

Chaute: Yeah, we have to be so careful with that, right? Because yes, we can stick it out, but it's sticking it out with what is, because you know, many times we hear that 80 20, right?

If 80% of it is going well and 20% is not, then yeah, we can stick it out with that 20%. Right. Sometimes we need to refocus ourselves because so many times, especially when we're young or we're not educated about healthy relationships, we're going in thinking that our partner's supposed to complete us when we need to be complete on our own and we need to do that work.

So sometimes within the relationship we need to kind of like refine our. So that part of the sticking it out, it's not giving up on this, but let me figure out self, because now I have some evolution to do within me. And I know that Michelle Obama, like she had a lot of, there were so many transitions happening, right?

So there's some work that we need to do for self because it's not always the other person. So when we take that time to make sense of that and then have real heart to heart conversations with our partner. Then we can see what's working to stick out or work through. Cause I don't really like the word, stick it out, work it through and get to the other side of it.

Wendy: Yeah. I also see it the other way around where like someone's been in a relationship for, I don't know, five, 10 years and like the initial part of that relationship. For the most part, like great, smooth, I guess the 80 20 model. But then, you know, 10, 15, 20 years down the line, it's almost like you're staying with that person because you've been with them for so long.

Mm-hmm. , and you're holding on to those really good memories. And so, you know, and thinking about having a long, successful, whatever you deem as successful, like being happy, you know? Um, I think I like that 80 20 model like, Just, yeah, being satisfied most of the time. What if that just hasn't been the case for like, you know, I don't know, two, three plus years?

Chaute: Right? For something like that, it's important for us to make sense of are we holding onto potential? , are we holding on to the cloud nine that we experienced in the beginning, and this is not the reality of the here and now for those moments. Let's have a reality check with self. Let's do some journaling.

Let's make sales make sense of truly what is in the here and now because. We, we have to be mindful not to live in denial, not to continue to hold on to what was and think, oh, it's gonna get better. It's gonna get better. And year after year after year, the facts in front of you is nothing is getting better.

Mm-hmm. So, yes, those moments, let's let go. Let's move forward. Yeah,

Jess: I'm just laughing at Wendy's reaction. She's like,

Wendy: yes, . . Yeah. I mean, I 100% because I've seen this, I've seen this with friends of mine too, who. got married really young and mm-hmm. , you know, maybe they were with their partners since they were in high school.

And it's like, well we've, you know, it's, it's almost like an illusion, a little bit like we've just been through so much and like that's kind of what you're holding onto versus like, what is the reality, what's actually happening right now? And the reality is that years and years of your life are going by and you're not in a satisfying relat.

Chaute: Yeah. Yeah. So we, we have to remember that people evolve, right? Or sometimes we do work to evolve because many times you find one partner is evolving and the other partner is, is really stagnant and happy in where they are. But then now you're growing apart, and if you are not doing the work as a couple to continue to evolve together, be it even if one person is, is progressing in their career or.

um, in their individuality, you know, but together as a couple, what are we doing to make sure that the, that as a couple we are pressing forward, and if we're not doing those things to evolve together and understand each other's individualities, then it's gonna be difficult for the relationship as a whole to continue to be healthy.

Yeah.

Jess: I also resent the fact that in heterosexual. Hit, or sorry, heterosexual cis relationships. Mm-hmm. , um, that it often seems like the woman is doing more of the labor when it comes to evolving. Have you noticed that in your

Chaute: practice? Yes. Yes, many, many, many times it's, it's, it's the women that are coming in because they have found themselves or found their voice or they took care of the home for so long, took care of, of their partner, took care of the kids.

So they put all of their stuff on the back burner, and then now they're starting to find their voice and do things for self, and it's, it's growing a wedge in the relationship.

Jess: So what do you say to people who have kind of been brainwashed right into thinking that being coupled is better and you know, you, you got the marriage, like you gotta keep it.

Like, what do you tell them, um, when they've, they know in their heart that maybe they need to get a divorce, but yet they're feeling like they'll be a failure if they. ,

Chaute: um, well for that. Okay, so it's really about them coming to the decision on their own right, because no one. Doesn't matter what anyone says.

If they have not come to this within their own heart and they are content with this decision, it's, it's going to feel uneasy. It's going to bring anxiousness, sadness. I mean, everything under the sun can take place, right? So it's just about stating the the facts, asking the right questions to help them to make sense of what am I really feeling?

What do I really want? Where do I really wanna be? What did I see my life? really to look like, um, how am I growing in this relationship? What's serving me, what's not serving me? What's my values? Right? Like asking yourself all of these good questions to know, all right, this is really not for me right now.

Yeah. And. With that, then they can start to say, all right, so what is for me? Where do I really want to be? What do I really want my life to look like? And the more they open up their eyes to that reality, and they start to face the fact that it's okay to go into the unknown, right? So many times we're scared.

Because I'm comfortable here or I'm comfortable in this uncomfortableness because I know it right, and I don't know what's out there, and I'm too scared to go out there. So I'll just stay right here and when they start to make sense of all right. This is not happy. It's not serving me. It doesn't feel good.

I'm tired of waking up every morning and dreading. I'm tired of sitting in my car and waiting until I can finally go inside because I don't wanna be here. Mm-hmm. , right? Like, when all of these things happen, then they can start to say, all right, I want something different. Let me take like, take, take that lunge, that jump to do something different.

Yeah.

Wendy: Yeah. And I also, One of the big reasons why, especially as women, we feel like we're a failure when divorce happens, is because there is so much pressure put on to Mary, and also it's seen as like one of the best things that you can do in life, like just thinking about all the attention and congratulations that you get when.

You know, people get engaged compared to like other life achievements. It's pretty fascinating. Like people are just like, oh my God, this is the best thing that's ever happened to you. And don't have the same regard for like other really big accomplishments, especially as women. I think for men, it's so funny cuz when they get married, I feel like the conversation is usually like, oh damn, you just got trapped.

Like right. your life, is about to go left. Mm-hmm. , you know? So I think that's also part of the reason why. You know, it's like such a big disappointment cuz we get so much love for being like, oh my God, you're, you know, you're getting married, you're in this relationship. Especially for black couples. It's like, oh my God, your goals like black love.

And then, you know, I'm sure like people struggle with that. Like, damn, well if I'm getting out of that, then I'm kind of letting down all these people who were rooting for.

Chaute: Right, but it feels like failure because you had these visions and dreams for yourself. You like, from a childhood, we are taught about, you know, getting married, getting the, the, the dress, having the family playing.

Dollhouse, like this has been the dream for many women from childhood. So now when they're in it, and even if it's not working or whatever's happening to ha to have to step away from that step away from the vision that they had for themselves. It feels like failure. It feels like everyone else is out here figuring it out, making it work.

How come I, how come mine couldn't work? How come we couldn't find a way? To make this actually happen. So it, it feels like I messed up. It feels like I did something wrong. It feels like I'm alone. Right. Um, but it's, it's where we, we kind of do some self-work to know that I am so much more than. A relationship.

I am so much more than a mom, a friend, a wife, and when we're able to make sense of who we are at our core and all of the many different hats that we wear and how valuable all of it is for us, then we can see that it's not a failure at all. It's lessons. So now we can press forward more wise.

Wendy: Yeah. And it's so important to also just talk about it because mm-hmm.

you know, I've seen that too, where it's like, next thing you know, someone's getting a divorce and it's like, wait, what's been going on this whole time? And Right. You know, maybe part of that is like people just don't feel comfortable talking about the real issues that are going on in the relationship.

Chaute: Yeah, you're right cuz we're taught to keep everything in the home. In the home. Yeah. Right. So, so many, I mean, I love that folks are coming out talking a lot more about their struggles, right? Because then we're able to see that we're not alone. We're able to see that other folks are going through the same things that we go through.

And when we can normalize that life is hard and there are so many different struggles that happen. and we can get into rooms with other folks that deal with some of the things that we deal with, then we can empower each other. We can have different strategies to know, okay, well this worked for you. You, you read this book, you listened to this podcast.

These different things can really help us all. Mm-hmm. to be okay or find ways to be okay.

Wendy: Exactly.

Jess: I'm wondering, so I have, um, heard and read articles on Psychology today that I'd say, um, by the time a couple goes to marriage counseling, It's almost too late. Do you feel like that's true?

Chaute: That's very true.

That's very true. Because so many times they're waiting. They're waiting, they say that we can figure it out. We're fine. There's nothing wrong with us. It's just X, Y, Z. And it's not until one of the partners is saying, yo, I'm done. And if we don't go to therapy, then. , this relationship is done. That's when, that's when they're finally saying, all right, let's get help.

I'm okay with going, and by, by then, so many things have festered. So many things have built on top of each other. It's so hard. It's, it's really, really hard. So yes, that, I agree. That's absolutely true.

Wendy: So do you recommend, like for preventative reasons, , that couples just do therapy if they can like. Maybe, uh, maybe, you know, maybe if they're not like, uh, pressing issues, but, um, not doing it like weekly, but maybe like, I don't know how often you would recommend like a quarterly check-in with the professional or something like that.

Chaute: Definitely. So you see how we take our cars? And we have our oil change every 5,000 to 10,000 miles. And we do that to make sure that our cars are healthy and it's getting us where we need to be. And it's not breaking down on us. We're getting our tires rotated. We we're getting the sparks plugs checked.

Like we're doing all of these things the same way that we get our yearly checkups, our physicals. We might be feeling it. We might feel extremely healthy, but we're still going. We're getting our blood work done, we're getting our eyes checked. This is the same way that we need to treat mental health. It's the same way that we need to treat our relationships.

So yes, we're healthy, we're good, we're happy, but let's have our quarterly checkups, or every six months we have our therapist that we're just going to. , they are the professionals and they can give us different tools that we can continue to use in our relationship. Um, so I definitely recommend having a therapist that you see.

If it's not quarterly, then at least once a year or, or twice a year, like I, I think that that helps a relationship.

Wendy: Okay. Okay, great. Now let's talk about the children. Mm-hmm. , so. You know, I think that for, for families that have children, that can a lot of times be a factor when it comes to divorce. And I think I read somewhere that like if the marriage is unhealthy to the point where you're arguing in front of the children, then the child will do better with y'all just getting a divorce.

However, if you have like healthy dynamics in front of the children, it's better to stay married. Like, I don't know, , I guess for in terms of like the outcomes of the child and making sure that they're emotionally okay. What are your thoughts on that? Is that even

Chaute: accurate? Well, children, we all feel the energy in a room, right?

So even if you're not arguing in front of your, your children, there can still be tension. Between you, so it's felt children feel that negative tension type of energy. So if the relationship is truly not well, then I don't recommend staying in it. Because it's doing a detriment to your children. It's doing a detriment to yourself.

It's doing a detriment to everyone involved so children can be resilient when parents are no longer together, as long as parents are creating an environment that is non-confrontational, that has the children continuing to do their extracurricular activities that they. Having an environment where children are learning how to effectively communicate their emotions and, um, they, they have systems and resources for their children and for themselves, children are able to be pretty good.

Okay. I have

Wendy: a follow up question to that. So let's say. Overall, you have a very healthy relationship with your partner. You're just not in love with them anymore, but you still have a lot of love for them. And, you know, logistically things work. It's just that you, you don't wanna be with that person. You don't wanna be intimate with that person in that situation.

Does it make sense then to, you know, like stay living together for the sake of, you know, the child and just like all the things that have to get done day to

Chaute: day for that, I think it's gonna be important that you think about your. Think about what are you teaching your children? What do you like, what type of relationships do you want your children to have when they get older?

Because what you're modeling for them, this is what's gonna stick with them, right? So if you're modeling to them that we're in a home, there's no affection that there's, that, there's no, um, like true love, like in love with each other, then it's teaching them how to have a relationship moving forward. . Okay.

So we need to be mindful of what we're teaching our children, what we're modeling for our children, because it's going to be carried out when they become adults as well. Think about the values, uh, depending on, you know, if you have Christian values or whatever your values and belief systems are, then this is gonna play a role too, because now are you living one way and teaching your children one thing, but.

It's not the way that you want your children to live when they get older. So think about these things. Yeah,

Wendy: that's a great point. I like that

Jess: a lot. Like what would you want for your kids? Mm-hmm. . And then is that something that you're having for yourself? Right. That makes sense. Does divorce meet criteria for trauma?

Chaute: Yes, it does. Yes. Okay. . Um, breakups are traumatic. Losses are traumatic, right? So it's up to that individual and what they're experiencing, um, to the level of the trauma. But it can still be traumatic. So now it's about granting person's grace like so many times. Um, we. A death, like, oh, okay. We're trying to be understanding, but we treat a breakup like get over it already.

Right, right. But we need to be mindful that everyone deals with loss differently. So give your friends, give your family members grace and give them space to be able to process and heal. Yeah,

Jess: that's great advice. What is, sorry, there's a plane a lot of planes over here. One second.

Is there anything that you suggest for somebody that's like the first thing they do if they decide they're going to file for divorce? Like any self-care strategies or, um, yeah. Things that they can do to preserve their wellbeing.

Chaute: Um, well first things first is therapy. , right? I think it's very important for them to get in with the therapist so they can start to process how they're feeling, why they're feeling it, what they need, how to have the needed conversations.

So that's, that's my first recommendation. Um, after that, start thinking about what's wellness for them. Do they need to get on like an exercise regimen or fitness or eating differently? Or what is self-care for? Right, and making sure that you are incorporating some type of self. , right? Because if your cup is empty, it's gonna be difficult for you to do all of the other responsibilities that's needed, right?

And then be patient and gracious with yourself. We're so hard on ourselves that we think we're just supposed to snap back. We're just supposed to be okay. Right? When that's we we're human , right? So the fact that we, we are human. We do feel we do need moments. Take your mental health days. Right. If you're feeling like you just need to curl up in bed and do nothing or watch TV or then allow yourself to do that, allow yourself to feel the feels as uncomfortable and icky as it is.

You have to feel it to get to the other side of it. So those are the first things I would definitely say. And then have your support systems have your people that are your people so you can have your healthy distractions. Yeah.

Jess: Do you ever have any clients who regret getting a divorce after time has

Chaute: passed?

Regret? Ooh, that's a strong word, . Um, I've, I've had a client that, um, that really just missed the relationship, right? Like so many times we missed the companionship. We miss the company. We miss you. We miss the good. Right. So when we have a breakup, it's easy to forget about all of the bad things because now we're we, we might be feeling lonely and we might be feeling like, well, if I just dealt with all of these things, then I'll still be able to have this person.

Around. So yes, I've had many clients that start to feel like, man, I'm alone now, and I don't, I don't like that, that big one. I don't have an emergency contact anymore like that. That's such a big one for folks, right? So those types of feelings come, but when they process and write down and see the pros and cons, then they can start to see, you know what?

This actually was the best thing for me. And what can I do to kind of help myself through this now? Now I know you're

Wendy: not a lawyer, however, , have you found that couples that have prenups in place, it just takes a little bit of the messiness out of the equation cuz things tend to be more laid out. Do you have any experience with that?

Chaute: I don't have experience with prenups, however, I am a Florida Supreme Court certified family mediator, so I work with a lot of families that decide, you know what divorce is best for us, and through mediation they're able to sit down and make some decisions and have a say so. in how they're gonna split things up, what the parenting plan is gonna look like, who's gonna get what, um, and when they're able to come together for mediation and they feel empowered that they're making the decisions for the next phase of their life, um, it, it, it works, right?

So if we think about that with the prenup thing, It can be a beneficial thing to, to have some things laid out. Um, but I, I don't have experience with that, so I'm not sure. Yeah.

Jess: I love the idea of being a mediator and going to a mediator first.

Wendy: Yes. Yeah. I didn't even know that was an option. Love that. All right, so for a friend who's going through a divorce, what are some things that we can do as friends to help support someone who's going through this really hard transition?

Chaute: Great, great, great question. Okay, so the first thing is put the ball back in their court. What I mean by that is ask them, how can I best support. Because so many times we want to help and we might do some things that we deem as helpful, but it might not really be helping at all. Right. Like, um, it's less helpful to bash the other person when you are doing that because you're, you're trying to empower your friend, right?

So the best thing first to do is say, how can I best support you right now? And that's where a friend can tell you, I just need you to be a distraction. Like, help me to go to the movies or talk about recipes, or, um, take me for a walk, or let's exercise, or let's be accountability partners. , these are the things that, that can help to take my mind off of the stress that I'm experiencing, right?

So first things first is ask how, how can I best support? Second is be understanding. Check in on them. Send them things that really works for them. It could be, um, memes, it could be quotes, it could be scripture, it could be, um, songs, right? Different things that helps to lift up their, their day. Um, so these are things that you, you can do, but just be a safe space for them to feel, for them to vent, for them to, um, be a distraction.

Like do these things for them. Um, and that is super helpful. Yeah.

Jess: I have a personal question and you cannot answer it, um, if you feel like you don't wided it out, but I'm curious, how did you get in? Oh, my thing just died. No, .

Chaute: Hi. Yay. Yay.

Jess: Hold on. Mm-hmm. , I was gonna ask how you got into, talk into, uh, focusing on the horse, but hold on one second.

Okay, here we go. How did you get into focusing on divorce and life post divorce?

Chaute: Definitely. Um, so for myself, I was married for 10 plus years. And in that relationship, you know, this was the person I was with from high school and we broke up, um, when I was in college. And then when I was graduating from college, we got back together.

So throughout that, that time of being together, and it was really that Cloud nine beautiful. You know, like, oh my goodness. Um, within the relationship, like five years in this is when the relationship started to, to go downhill. So by 10 years, um, I d we decided that it's best not to be together anymore. Um, so that's what got me into, because I was already a.

Therapist. So when we met with a mediator, I was like, oh, there are different avenues that we can really do with this. So that's really how I got into, um, divorce period to, to start helping others because I went through my own brand new me journey. And as I went through that and when Alicia Keys song came out, brand New Me, I was like, oh, she is singing my life right now,

So while that was happening, that kind of geared me into it. , and that's how I started to help others to know that there is life after and you can grow and be your best self. That's how I started helping parents to have that positive parenting journey because as a single mom, There's so many times that we feel like, I really wish there was a manual

I really wish I had everything right there to kind of help me through. So through all of the things that I've experienced, um, I've done the different work for myself and went to school for different things to be able to help others. Yeah,

Jess: I think having the lived experience, like if I was going through a divorce, I would wanna work with somebody who has been through a divorce and can actually understand what it's like in real life.

Mm-hmm. . Um, now given yourself as an example, like what were. The couple of things that really helped you get through your divorce that you would recommend to other

Chaute: people? Okay. Well, some of it I mentioned, but, um, some, okay. So therapy was the first thing that I did. Um, after that I started CrossFit. , right?

Because, because when I started doing CrossFit, it kind of helped me to, um, feel empowered within myself and get healthier with my body and feel confident in that respect. Um, and then I read a lot of books. Um, I listened to podcasts. My faith was the core of any of everything, so I stayed connected with, with God.

Um, and then I had my support systems and. , that was super helpful as well. Um, and then I had a friend that was going through a divorce at the same time, so something that she always told me was, feel the feels. And I'm like, I don't wanna feel it. Mm-hmm. . So I allowed myself to take moments for self. Yeah.

Jess: Is there any one book or one podcast that you would recommend people check out or

Chaute: start.

I'm gonna be a little bit biased, but it's, it's the truth. Um, two bucks. Um, the first one I'm gonna say is How To Fix a Broken Heart By Guy Winch. This is a really good book. It's a quick read. He has a Ted Talk. Um, so it's really, really good stuff. He talks about like the science behind. What's happening when you go through a breakup and then the detox period and how to get to the other side of it.

Um, so I definitely recommend that book. And then the other one is Brand New Me Complimented, completed and Whole. It's a guide for singles and couples to grow from within. So this book I'm the author of, um, and it, it really like it's relatable stories. It's lessons and like things for you to start working through.

Um, you can skip around in it. My only recommendation is whenever you read a story, do the lessons for that story. Um, but it helps you to have a healthier relationship first with yourself cuz that's where it starts. And then with others. I love that.

Wendy: So tell us about how people can work with you if that's something that you currently offer, like where people can find you if they wanna learn more about

Chaute: your.

Definitely. Thank you for that. Um, so, uh, there are two ways that folks can work with me. Um, I have a private practice inspiring Hope Counseling services. I am a licensed psychotherapist, so I'm licensed in Florida and Georgia. So if you're looking for counseling, you can contact me. Um, and I'm providing teletherapy, so it doesn't matter if you're in Florida or Georgia.

I can assist wherever you are in, in the States. Um, but then I. Brand new me. Um, so with that, I provide, um, consultations for relationships and for positive parenting. Um, so if you need any type of help or would like just clarity on your journey to being a brand new you or to having a positive parent child relationship, um, blended family relationships, like all of those things, then I provide consultations for that.

So the two ways that you can contact me are inspire hope, health healing. Dot com and thompson.com.

Jess: Love it. And you have two books, right? I do, I do. Okay. What's the second one? How are they different? Oh,

Chaute: okay. Wait, let me get the second one for you. Okay, . So this is my very first book. It's called Brand New Me, the Pursuit of Wholeness.

It's the Journey from Pain to Greatness. Mm-hmm. . So for this book, there are a few of us. and we all tell our story of the journey from heartbreak. To getting to a brand new us and what that journey looked like, the different things that really helped us. Um, and then at the end of it, there's a note to reader.

So it kind of gives like that blueprint for the reader of the different things that they can start doing now to kind of help themselves through. . And then my second book is Brand New Me Complimented Completed in whole. It's a guide for singles and couples to grow from within. So this is a book that both, it helps singles and couples.

It's a workbook. Um, and it helps you kind of to do the work, right? Because so many times we just think, oh, when we read it, we're just supposed to know it. But if we don't apply it, then it's not sticking. Right? And all of our. Past relationships doesn't have to be baggage. They can be lessons. So this book allows you to take lessons from everything that you've gone through to be the best version of yourself.

I'm ordering that one today. ,

Jess: thank you so much. This was an amazing conversation interview. I learned a lot and I hope that our listeners did too. We really appreciate it.

Jess: [00:00:00] So you talked about growing positive strengths in a relationship versus focusing solely on getting rid of problems. Can you elaborate a little bit more on how people can grow positive strengths in their long-term relationship?

Ty: Uh, sure. Yeah. So psychology in general, I should say, as a blanket statement, has not been great about, uh, focusing on how to grow positives.

Uh, as a field we've been really focused on, Hey, what's wrong with somebody and how can we, it was for a good pur purpose. It was like, how can we. Help people not suffer as much, but there's a lot more to life of course, than, um, than just trying not to suffer. You also want to thrive and, uh, have good things as well.

Um, relationship research and therapy has been no different in, in that sense, but, um, there have been some good advances, I think over by the last 15 years or so, and one of my favorite. Areas of research is called [00:01:00] capitalization. And this is, I, I love it because it's a really powerful, um, thing, folks, things that, uh, folks can do in a relationship.

Um, and it's also just makes a lot of sense. I think it's really intuitive, so, Uh, there's this woman, Shelly Gable, she's a professor in social psychology and she's got this great series of studies. And so she, she found like when couples come home at the end of a day, the overwhelming majority of the time, something good has happened right during a course period.

Thank goodness. And they share that with their partner. And so, here's this great opportunity. Your partners just shared something. Really well that day. So, you know, maybe they're like, Hey, I, I really had this great interview with Justin, Wendy today. It was so much fun and it was, it was really fantastic. Uh, that's a piece of good news now, the partner.

Can just keep [00:02:00] surfing the television channels and not really pay attention to what's going on. Uh, that is not capitalization, , that's actually a real lost opportunity. But that can happen, right? And so what Gable found is that when the partner is a good listener about this good news, and then they, their response, you know, is responsive to the content of that.

So like, oh, I'm so glad you had a. Interview today. Tell me more about that. Uh, that's huge, but just as important is that the person's level of enthusiasm, uh, or emotional state, matches the intensity of the person who is sharing the good news. Um, and when this happens, when you. Echo the, the content of what's happened and maybe show some curiosity about it.

But you also have this genuine enthusiasm that something is good has happened for your partner, um, that's capitalization and you've capitalized on this great moment. And what happens then is that [00:03:00] couple is more happy, of course, in that moment, both partners. Uh, but also then if you look hours later before they go to bed, it's carried over for hours.

If you look at them three days later. After capitalization has occurred, that capitalization effect is still having a positive impact on a relationship. So when we think about empathy, we usually think about, oh, something's wrong, and I need to empathize with that for my partner. Yes, that's still important.

but I think we miss these other opportunities where, hey, there's, there's good things, that happen in a relationship or in our partner's lives all the time, and we really need to seize that opportunity to. Hear them, but but also build them up, you know? And, and it's what a wonderful way to, to support somebody.

And conversely, if we fail to get to grasp the moments, that sure doesn't go very well. Uh, I think we've maybe had moments for, our partners aren't, They don't [00:04:00] capitalize on a moment, and it can feel really deflating when, when that happens. So yeah, there, there's an example of of of building strength. Uh, there's other things folks can do.

Uh, I I think one of the things folks lose sight of is play things that get so serious and kind of checklist, like in a relationship, um, just dealing with life that. You know when couples, they'll lose that playful spirit, and that really SAPs some of that passion out of the relationship. So having, you have to be kind of premeditated about it, and it feels a little bit contrived as you're making the plans, but it's such an important thing to do for couples to intentionally set aside time.

To do something that's gonna be a playful kind of activity and uninterrupted. And when they find, when couples do make that time and do immerse in those activities, once again, there's something that's not only fun in the moment and relationship building, but as carryover [00:05:00] effects in the long term. I

Wendy: love that.

Now, shifting gears to social media and the internet, cuz I know you said that you know, these things have really shifted. Dating relationships and on social media, I feel like I see extremes. It's either like the perfect relationship or people are getting divorced and there's no in between . Um, and I'm just wondering like, what are your thoughts on, you know, putting a relationship out there like that?

Especially with, you know, social media. If you have a profile that's open to people that you don't know. , does that have the potential to hurt the relationship? Um, you know, does that, like, does being on social media and kind of like putting your stuff out there, then does that pressure impact, um, you know, the happiness in the relationship?

Ty: Yeah. It's, uh, what a confusing area that is Yeah. How to navigate that. [00:06:00] Right. Um, there's, there's a couple things I think that are pertinent. One is observers of other people's relationships, uh, and social media. Uh, there's this, there's this interesting finding that's, it keeps getting replicated, which is that there's those super enthusiastic, uh, couples who are kind of overboard with the posting and, and like the enthusiasm and you're like, oh, this is almost kind of weird.

Too much. Yeah. Uh, it is too much. It turns out because. In those couples, they're more likely to be actually unhappy and have issues. And you know, I'm, I'm not, I actually have some empathy for it cuz here's a couple that's struggling and they're using it as a coping mechanism. So it's a way to be like, Hey, they're almost trying to convince themselves, Hey, we're okay

You know what I'm saying? , right? Uh, no, I don't know. Then maybe you get a bunch of like, shit, and it's kind of, you're [00:07:00] building this in the metaverse, you're building this idea in your head, Hey, we're, we're all right. Keep going. Yeah. So that's, that's, that's one thing to know. Um, but I think there's another thing.

Two that goes along with that, which is an old social psychology phrase that I love, which is what's perceived as real is real and it's consequences. And I think sometimes folks think like, oh, it's just social media. Uh, and so they'll do things on there that might make a partner uncomfortable, that might do things on there that are maybe flirtatious with someone.

Who's not their partner, for example, and, uh, and they think, oh, it's just social media. And I, I don't think that's true , you know? Yeah, it is social media, but the impact of that, and the perception of that is gonna have a very concrete and real consequence, um, on the relationship. So I always tell [00:08:00] folks, you know, whether it's in a relationship or otherwise, uh, yes, try to keep some realism around the role of social media and keep some distance from it and it's this whole other thing.

But also realize that some of the actions that you do or don't do on social media will have a very real. On the actual quality of your, of your relationships. And you know, I see couples get tripped up by that all the time, where, you know, one of the partners will be like, oh, well, let's say it's a jealousy kind of situation.

But maybe it's one of those jealousy situations where it's like, well, I kind of understand why someone feels meant outta shape here. And the other partner will be like, well, it's just, but it's just, it's just dumb. It's just Facebook or whatever. It's like, no. That's a real deal. So that would be the other thing I would say to folks is, you know, just be real cautious about it.

And it's real easy to be passive aggressive, toward a partner. I think using the social media sometimes.

Jess: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So don't post your [00:09:00] relationship

Ty: online, I would say. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I try not to make blanket statements, but yeah. , I, I'd feel pretty comfortable, pretty much, yeah. Feel pretty comfortable with that one.

I think, you know, assuming it's the case. You're solid in a relationship. Uh, then I, I do think it's nice. You'll see those occasional posts sometimes. You're like, yeah, that couple's good, and the partners posted something to just show their gratitude or appreciation for the partner every now and then. I think that's great.

Cause now here's something that's gonna be perceived as real and that's gonna be real and its, and its consequences. So, yeah. Uh, that, that would be something that would be, that would be nice to do. I think in general, what they're, my impression, I'm not an expert in this area, but my impression of what they're finding with social media and wellness and mental health is that the people who use it well are [00:10:00] people who.

Use it to support others, you know, and they're, they're, they like other people's posts more. They've say, share more encouraging comments on the other people's posts. Um, and then they use it as a bridge to strengthen their in real life relationships. So, um, I think if people keep that general philosophy in mind, that seems to be the most productive way to.

That's really

Jess: helpful advice. I'm trying to do that more with like liking other people's stuff, commenting, supporting, and you're right, it does make you feel

Wendy: better on

Ty: hearing other people on. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It can be tough, especially when, you know, when you have a big platform and and so forth. It can be hard to do those things, but uh, but yeah, we could all just do the best we can, right?

Yeah. The best we

Jess: can. I have a quick question about second marriages. from your research, if you've looked into [00:11:00] it at all, do people tend to be happier in second marriages?

Ty: No . Uh, as far as the happiness goes, my impression is the results have been mixed about that. So I, I, you know, I can't say one way or the other.

Now, when it comes to stability, though, it's a little more clear. So when it comes to the relationship stability, second marriages tend to fare a little bit worse actually, than first marriages. So the risk rate for divorce actually goes up about 10% in second marriage. So to about, you know, let's say 51% from 41%.

So, uh, a little bit elevated. It's not to, you know, with all these we have to keep in mind these are group averages. So these are across large groups of people, you know, looking at the average raise stability, for example. So that also means half of those second marriages are working out and yeah, and staying together.

But, um, I think what happens there [00:12:00] sometimes is. You know, there's two ways to approach that, I guess. One is the first marriage didn't work out. You're mindful about it, you think about it, do some soul searching, figure out what it is you really want, and then go in with that clarity and intention of the second marriage.

Um, or, you know, some people just like to be in relationships, . Yeah. And so they'll just kinda jump to the next thing. And, um, th that's a case then where obviously the prospects wouldn't be.

Wendy: Hmm. That makes total sense. Well, in wrapping, tell our listeners one thing they can start doing today to improve the quality of their relationship.

Ty: Hmm. Wow. Uh, well, they could capitalize, which we talked about, but let me give you just a, I'll cheat here and give a, give a second one, but, And I think going back earlier to what we talked about with, uh, uh, [00:13:00] couples who did find a happily ever after and, and, you know, just appreciate those little things about their partner and a relationship.

Uh, so easy to habituate to the awesome things are our partners doing relationships. So I would say, you know, just, just go into those. everyday experiences with eyes open and, and heart open and full gratitude and appreciation for, Hey, you know what, there are dozens of things my partner does every day that are so cool and so thoughtful and, and the, the support, um, either me or the relationship and, and share that with the partner.

It doesn't have to be everything. Still think something's wrong, or something maybe. But, um, just to say, hey, the, the, the fact that. Pack my lunch every day. If that's something that they do for you and you put those hot Fritos in there, or whatever they're doing for you, that's a really sweet little [00:14:00] gesture.

Um, just vocalizing that and, and putting that out there, uh, is an easy thing that people can do and that they should do because it has a really positive, um, you know, growth promoting effect on their relat.

Jess: Can I just say I've listened to so many relationship podcasts and this is my favorite one because it is so rooted in science and evident Oh, thank you.

And it's also just very practical advice, so thank you for that. I loved. Interview and I think our listeners will love it as well. And can you let folks know where they can find your book and more about you and the work that you do?

Ty: Yeah, and and let me say too, I appreciate you all and. There's a real genuineness, I think, how you go about this.

So, um, I think you create good situations for, for folks. But, [00:15:00] um, yeah, they, they go to tahiro.com, which is my website. Um, the book we've been talking about is the Science Pathway ever after, and they can just find network where books are sold. But, uh, yeah, I, I really enjoyed this too, so thank you for having me.