Divorce is a topic most stray away from, but we are here facing it head on with author and Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Chautè Henry Thompson. This is the last episode in our relationship series and we can’t talk about relationships without talking about divorce. Listen to hear from an expert on when it may be time to get a divorce, why some couples get divorced, and what to do if you’re just not in love anymore.
What we cover:
- The easiest way to know when it’s time to get a divorce?
- How much “sticking it out” should you actually do?
- Why women in cisgender heterosexual relationships are more likely to file for divorce than men
- Chautè’s brilliant advice for people who know they need to get a divorce but are afraid
- Why getting a divorce does not make you a failure
- Should couples counseling be more preventative than reactive?
- What if you’re not “in love” anymore?
- Whether or not divorce meets criteria for trauma
- Chautè’s super helpful tips for how to care for yourself through divorce, as someone who has been there
- Do people ever regret getting a divorce?
- Do prenups make divorce easier?
- Whether or not you should stay married for the kids
- How to support a friend through divorce
- Will divorce automatically traumatize your children?
- & MORE
Resources mentioned in this episode:
- Courses for Brand New Me Journey and Positive Parenting Journey
- Brand New Me Journey Facebook Community
- Let’s Parent Facebook Community
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Jess: So in talking about relationships, um, I feel like the conversation usually centers around trying to find a partner or like making it work with a partner, but there's usually not much talk about divorce, and so that's what drew us to you because you focus on the voice and life after divorce. I'm wondering with the pandemic, how did that affect your practice?
Did you see a huge surge in.
Chaute: There, there was an increase in relationship counseling, right? Because now they're home for days on top of days on top of days with each other, and things that they were able to get away from, they weren't able to get away from anymore. Um, so a lot of couples came in just trying to better know how to.
Cope with difficulties or work through certain conversations or know how to best communicate, see each other, hear each other, understand how to press forward. So that definitely happened a lot more.
Wendy: Okay. But you didn't necessarily see a surgeon divorced?
Chaute: I mean, they don't come to me when they're divorced, you know?
Okay. They come to me when they're having the, the issues, and then they just say, you know what? It's not working. Mm-hmm. . So that's where I, I had individuals. Were going through divorces, they would come as well, but the couples were coming where, yo, something's wrong. Uh, this is not the way that I thought it was.
We, we really need some help right now. Yeah, that
Jess: makes sense. So I just am gonna jump right in with what everyone's wondering. How do you know when it's time to get a divorce? Or is there things that you can know or things you talk about with.
Chaute: Well, that's that. That's really it, right? There's tons of things for individuals that's happening within self, right?
And many times one individual is more disconnected than the other and it's not really being communicated. So how do you know when it's time? It's when you're sick and tired, or being sick and tired. Right. That's when you really know that I'm pretty much done. Um, it's when you're feeling like your voice is not heard, it's when you've lost yourself completely.
It's when communication, you are on different books altogether, or one's in the beginning of the book, one's at the end, and there's no way to come together, right? If there's any form of abuse, like emotional abuse happens and you sometimes don't realize that you're experiencing. Emotional abuse, right? So when you start to gain, like go to therapy for yourself, start to grow and realize some things, try and have conversations.
If it's just not moving forward, then this is when you see that the best thing for the entire family, right? Because sometimes divorce is best for the children, for everyone as a whole. So when you see that these types of things are, are taking. It's okay, you can move forward. Yeah. Time to
Jess: bounce. Mm-hmm. , I always struggle with the idea of sticking it out, right?
So I recently heard Michelle Obama talk about how she couldn't stand Barack for the first 10 years of their marriage and but the second. Half of their marriage, or I guess 20 years is, has been wonderful. Mm-hmm. . And we are often getting that advice of like, ladies, stick it out and it's gonna get better.
Do you feel like that advice is misguided or like how much sticking it out should you actually do? Because 10 years is a long time.
Chaute: Yeah, we have to be so careful with that, right? Because yes, we can stick it out, but it's sticking it out with what is, because you know, many times we hear that 80 20, right?
If 80% of it is going well and 20% is not, then yeah, we can stick it out with that 20%. Right. Sometimes we need to refocus ourselves because so many times, especially when we're young or we're not educated about healthy relationships, we're going in thinking that our partner's supposed to complete us when we need to be complete on our own and we need to do that work.
So sometimes within the relationship we need to kind of like refine our. So that part of the sticking it out, it's not giving up on this, but let me figure out self, because now I have some evolution to do within me. And I know that Michelle Obama, like she had a lot of, there were so many transitions happening, right?
So there's some work that we need to do for self because it's not always the other person. So when we take that time to make sense of that and then have real heart to heart conversations with our partner. Then we can see what's working to stick out or work through. Cause I don't really like the word, stick it out, work it through and get to the other side of it.
Wendy: Yeah. I also see it the other way around where like someone's been in a relationship for, I don't know, five, 10 years and like the initial part of that relationship. For the most part, like great, smooth, I guess the 80 20 model. But then, you know, 10, 15, 20 years down the line, it's almost like you're staying with that person because you've been with them for so long.
Mm-hmm. , and you're holding on to those really good memories. And so, you know, and thinking about having a long, successful, whatever you deem as successful, like being happy, you know? Um, I think I like that 80 20 model like, Just, yeah, being satisfied most of the time. What if that just hasn't been the case for like, you know, I don't know, two, three plus years?
Chaute: Right? For something like that, it's important for us to make sense of are we holding onto potential? , are we holding on to the cloud nine that we experienced in the beginning, and this is not the reality of the here and now for those moments. Let's have a reality check with self. Let's do some journaling.
Let's make sales make sense of truly what is in the here and now because. We, we have to be mindful not to live in denial, not to continue to hold on to what was and think, oh, it's gonna get better. It's gonna get better. And year after year after year, the facts in front of you is nothing is getting better.
Mm-hmm. So, yes, those moments, let's let go. Let's move forward. Yeah,
Jess: I'm just laughing at Wendy's reaction. She's like,
Wendy: yes, . . Yeah. I mean, I 100% because I've seen this, I've seen this with friends of mine too, who. got married really young and mm-hmm. , you know, maybe they were with their partners since they were in high school.
And it's like, well we've, you know, it's, it's almost like an illusion, a little bit like we've just been through so much and like that's kind of what you're holding onto versus like, what is the reality, what's actually happening right now? And the reality is that years and years of your life are going by and you're not in a satisfying relat.
Chaute: Yeah. Yeah. So we, we have to remember that people evolve, right? Or sometimes we do work to evolve because many times you find one partner is evolving and the other partner is, is really stagnant and happy in where they are. But then now you're growing apart, and if you are not doing the work as a couple to continue to evolve together, be it even if one person is, is progressing in their career or.
um, in their individuality, you know, but together as a couple, what are we doing to make sure that the, that as a couple we are pressing forward, and if we're not doing those things to evolve together and understand each other's individualities, then it's gonna be difficult for the relationship as a whole to continue to be healthy.
Jess: I also resent the fact that in heterosexual. Hit, or sorry, heterosexual cis relationships. Mm-hmm. , um, that it often seems like the woman is doing more of the labor when it comes to evolving. Have you noticed that in your
Chaute: practice? Yes. Yes, many, many, many times it's, it's, it's the women that are coming in because they have found themselves or found their voice or they took care of the home for so long, took care of, of their partner, took care of the kids.
So they put all of their stuff on the back burner, and then now they're starting to find their voice and do things for self, and it's, it's growing a wedge in the relationship.
Jess: So what do you say to people who have kind of been brainwashed right into thinking that being coupled is better and you know, you, you got the marriage, like you gotta keep it.
Like, what do you tell them, um, when they've, they know in their heart that maybe they need to get a divorce, but yet they're feeling like they'll be a failure if they. ,
Chaute: um, well for that. Okay, so it's really about them coming to the decision on their own right, because no one. Doesn't matter what anyone says.
If they have not come to this within their own heart and they are content with this decision, it's, it's going to feel uneasy. It's going to bring anxiousness, sadness. I mean, everything under the sun can take place, right? So it's just about stating the the facts, asking the right questions to help them to make sense of what am I really feeling?
What do I really want? Where do I really wanna be? What did I see my life? really to look like, um, how am I growing in this relationship? What's serving me, what's not serving me? What's my values? Right? Like asking yourself all of these good questions to know, all right, this is really not for me right now.
Yeah. And. With that, then they can start to say, all right, so what is for me? Where do I really want to be? What do I really want my life to look like? And the more they open up their eyes to that reality, and they start to face the fact that it's okay to go into the unknown, right? So many times we're scared.
Because I'm comfortable here or I'm comfortable in this uncomfortableness because I know it right, and I don't know what's out there, and I'm too scared to go out there. So I'll just stay right here and when they start to make sense of all right. This is not happy. It's not serving me. It doesn't feel good.
I'm tired of waking up every morning and dreading. I'm tired of sitting in my car and waiting until I can finally go inside because I don't wanna be here. Mm-hmm. , right? Like, when all of these things happen, then they can start to say, all right, I want something different. Let me take like, take, take that lunge, that jump to do something different.
Wendy: Yeah. And I also, One of the big reasons why, especially as women, we feel like we're a failure when divorce happens, is because there is so much pressure put on to Mary, and also it's seen as like one of the best things that you can do in life, like just thinking about all the attention and congratulations that you get when.
You know, people get engaged compared to like other life achievements. It's pretty fascinating. Like people are just like, oh my God, this is the best thing that's ever happened to you. And don't have the same regard for like other really big accomplishments, especially as women. I think for men, it's so funny cuz when they get married, I feel like the conversation is usually like, oh damn, you just got trapped.
Like right. your life, is about to go left. Mm-hmm. , you know? So I think that's also part of the reason why. You know, it's like such a big disappointment cuz we get so much love for being like, oh my God, you're, you know, you're getting married, you're in this relationship. Especially for black couples. It's like, oh my God, your goals like black love.
And then, you know, I'm sure like people struggle with that. Like, damn, well if I'm getting out of that, then I'm kind of letting down all these people who were rooting for.
Chaute: Right, but it feels like failure because you had these visions and dreams for yourself. You like, from a childhood, we are taught about, you know, getting married, getting the, the, the dress, having the family playing.
Dollhouse, like this has been the dream for many women from childhood. So now when they're in it, and even if it's not working or whatever's happening to ha to have to step away from that step away from the vision that they had for themselves. It feels like failure. It feels like everyone else is out here figuring it out, making it work.
How come I, how come mine couldn't work? How come we couldn't find a way? To make this actually happen. So it, it feels like I messed up. It feels like I did something wrong. It feels like I'm alone. Right. Um, but it's, it's where we, we kind of do some self-work to know that I am so much more than. A relationship.
I am so much more than a mom, a friend, a wife, and when we're able to make sense of who we are at our core and all of the many different hats that we wear and how valuable all of it is for us, then we can see that it's not a failure at all. It's lessons. So now we can press forward more wise.
Wendy: Yeah. And it's so important to also just talk about it because mm-hmm.
you know, I've seen that too, where it's like, next thing you know, someone's getting a divorce and it's like, wait, what's been going on this whole time? And Right. You know, maybe part of that is like people just don't feel comfortable talking about the real issues that are going on in the relationship.
Chaute: Yeah, you're right cuz we're taught to keep everything in the home. In the home. Yeah. Right. So, so many, I mean, I love that folks are coming out talking a lot more about their struggles, right? Because then we're able to see that we're not alone. We're able to see that other folks are going through the same things that we go through.
And when we can normalize that life is hard and there are so many different struggles that happen. and we can get into rooms with other folks that deal with some of the things that we deal with, then we can empower each other. We can have different strategies to know, okay, well this worked for you. You, you read this book, you listened to this podcast.
These different things can really help us all. Mm-hmm. to be okay or find ways to be okay.
Jess: I'm wondering, so I have, um, heard and read articles on Psychology today that I'd say, um, by the time a couple goes to marriage counseling, It's almost too late. Do you feel like that's true?
Chaute: That's very true.
That's very true. Because so many times they're waiting. They're waiting, they say that we can figure it out. We're fine. There's nothing wrong with us. It's just X, Y, Z. And it's not until one of the partners is saying, yo, I'm done. And if we don't go to therapy, then. , this relationship is done. That's when, that's when they're finally saying, all right, let's get help.
I'm okay with going, and by, by then, so many things have festered. So many things have built on top of each other. It's so hard. It's, it's really, really hard. So yes, that, I agree. That's absolutely true.
Wendy: So do you recommend, like for preventative reasons, , that couples just do therapy if they can like. Maybe, uh, maybe, you know, maybe if they're not like, uh, pressing issues, but, um, not doing it like weekly, but maybe like, I don't know how often you would recommend like a quarterly check-in with the professional or something like that.
Chaute: Definitely. So you see how we take our cars? And we have our oil change every 5,000 to 10,000 miles. And we do that to make sure that our cars are healthy and it's getting us where we need to be. And it's not breaking down on us. We're getting our tires rotated. We we're getting the sparks plugs checked.
Like we're doing all of these things the same way that we get our yearly checkups, our physicals. We might be feeling it. We might feel extremely healthy, but we're still going. We're getting our blood work done, we're getting our eyes checked. This is the same way that we need to treat mental health. It's the same way that we need to treat our relationships.
So yes, we're healthy, we're good, we're happy, but let's have our quarterly checkups, or every six months we have our therapist that we're just going to. , they are the professionals and they can give us different tools that we can continue to use in our relationship. Um, so I definitely recommend having a therapist that you see.
If it's not quarterly, then at least once a year or, or twice a year, like I, I think that that helps a relationship.
Wendy: Okay. Okay, great. Now let's talk about the children. Mm-hmm. , so. You know, I think that for, for families that have children, that can a lot of times be a factor when it comes to divorce. And I think I read somewhere that like if the marriage is unhealthy to the point where you're arguing in front of the children, then the child will do better with y'all just getting a divorce.
However, if you have like healthy dynamics in front of the children, it's better to stay married. Like, I don't know, , I guess for in terms of like the outcomes of the child and making sure that they're emotionally okay. What are your thoughts on that? Is that even
Chaute: accurate? Well, children, we all feel the energy in a room, right?
So even if you're not arguing in front of your, your children, there can still be tension. Between you, so it's felt children feel that negative tension type of energy. So if the relationship is truly not well, then I don't recommend staying in it. Because it's doing a detriment to your children. It's doing a detriment to yourself.
It's doing a detriment to everyone involved so children can be resilient when parents are no longer together, as long as parents are creating an environment that is non-confrontational, that has the children continuing to do their extracurricular activities that they. Having an environment where children are learning how to effectively communicate their emotions and, um, they, they have systems and resources for their children and for themselves, children are able to be pretty good.
Okay. I have
Wendy: a follow up question to that. So let's say. Overall, you have a very healthy relationship with your partner. You're just not in love with them anymore, but you still have a lot of love for them. And, you know, logistically things work. It's just that you, you don't wanna be with that person. You don't wanna be intimate with that person in that situation.
Does it make sense then to, you know, like stay living together for the sake of, you know, the child and just like all the things that have to get done day to
Chaute: day for that, I think it's gonna be important that you think about your. Think about what are you teaching your children? What do you like, what type of relationships do you want your children to have when they get older?
Because what you're modeling for them, this is what's gonna stick with them, right? So if you're modeling to them that we're in a home, there's no affection that there's, that, there's no, um, like true love, like in love with each other, then it's teaching them how to have a relationship moving forward. . Okay.
So we need to be mindful of what we're teaching our children, what we're modeling for our children, because it's going to be carried out when they become adults as well. Think about the values, uh, depending on, you know, if you have Christian values or whatever your values and belief systems are, then this is gonna play a role too, because now are you living one way and teaching your children one thing, but.
It's not the way that you want your children to live when they get older. So think about these things. Yeah,
Wendy: that's a great point. I like that
Jess: a lot. Like what would you want for your kids? Mm-hmm. . And then is that something that you're having for yourself? Right. That makes sense. Does divorce meet criteria for trauma?
Chaute: Yes, it does. Yes. Okay. . Um, breakups are traumatic. Losses are traumatic, right? So it's up to that individual and what they're experiencing, um, to the level of the trauma. But it can still be traumatic. So now it's about granting person's grace like so many times. Um, we. A death, like, oh, okay. We're trying to be understanding, but we treat a breakup like get over it already.
Right, right. But we need to be mindful that everyone deals with loss differently. So give your friends, give your family members grace and give them space to be able to process and heal. Yeah,
Jess: that's great advice. What is, sorry, there's a plane a lot of planes over here. One second.
Is there anything that you suggest for somebody that's like the first thing they do if they decide they're going to file for divorce? Like any self-care strategies or, um, yeah. Things that they can do to preserve their wellbeing.
Chaute: Um, well first things first is therapy. , right? I think it's very important for them to get in with the therapist so they can start to process how they're feeling, why they're feeling it, what they need, how to have the needed conversations.
So that's, that's my first recommendation. Um, after that, start thinking about what's wellness for them. Do they need to get on like an exercise regimen or fitness or eating differently? Or what is self-care for? Right, and making sure that you are incorporating some type of self. , right? Because if your cup is empty, it's gonna be difficult for you to do all of the other responsibilities that's needed, right?
And then be patient and gracious with yourself. We're so hard on ourselves that we think we're just supposed to snap back. We're just supposed to be okay. Right? When that's we we're human , right? So the fact that we, we are human. We do feel we do need moments. Take your mental health days. Right. If you're feeling like you just need to curl up in bed and do nothing or watch TV or then allow yourself to do that, allow yourself to feel the feels as uncomfortable and icky as it is.
You have to feel it to get to the other side of it. So those are the first things I would definitely say. And then have your support systems have your people that are your people so you can have your healthy distractions. Yeah.
Jess: Do you ever have any clients who regret getting a divorce after time has
Regret? Ooh, that's a strong word, . Um, I've, I've had a client that, um, that really just missed the relationship, right? Like so many times we missed the companionship. We miss the company. We miss you. We miss the good. Right. So when we have a breakup, it's easy to forget about all of the bad things because now we're we, we might be feeling lonely and we might be feeling like, well, if I just dealt with all of these things, then I'll still be able to have this person.
Around. So yes, I've had many clients that start to feel like, man, I'm alone now, and I don't, I don't like that, that big one. I don't have an emergency contact anymore like that. That's such a big one for folks, right? So those types of feelings come, but when they process and write down and see the pros and cons, then they can start to see, you know what?
This actually was the best thing for me. And what can I do to kind of help myself through this now? Now I know you're
Wendy: not a lawyer, however, , have you found that couples that have prenups in place, it just takes a little bit of the messiness out of the equation cuz things tend to be more laid out. Do you have any experience with that?
Chaute: I don't have experience with prenups, however, I am a Florida Supreme Court certified family mediator, so I work with a lot of families that decide, you know what divorce is best for us, and through mediation they're able to sit down and make some decisions and have a say so. in how they're gonna split things up, what the parenting plan is gonna look like, who's gonna get what, um, and when they're able to come together for mediation and they feel empowered that they're making the decisions for the next phase of their life, um, it, it, it works, right?
So if we think about that with the prenup thing, It can be a beneficial thing to, to have some things laid out. Um, but I, I don't have experience with that, so I'm not sure. Yeah.
Jess: I love the idea of being a mediator and going to a mediator first.
Wendy: Yes. Yeah. I didn't even know that was an option. Love that. All right, so for a friend who's going through a divorce, what are some things that we can do as friends to help support someone who's going through this really hard transition?
Chaute: Great, great, great question. Okay, so the first thing is put the ball back in their court. What I mean by that is ask them, how can I best support. Because so many times we want to help and we might do some things that we deem as helpful, but it might not really be helping at all. Right. Like, um, it's less helpful to bash the other person when you are doing that because you're, you're trying to empower your friend, right?
So the best thing first to do is say, how can I best support you right now? And that's where a friend can tell you, I just need you to be a distraction. Like, help me to go to the movies or talk about recipes, or, um, take me for a walk, or let's exercise, or let's be accountability partners. , these are the things that, that can help to take my mind off of the stress that I'm experiencing, right?
So first things first is ask how, how can I best support? Second is be understanding. Check in on them. Send them things that really works for them. It could be, um, memes, it could be quotes, it could be scripture, it could be, um, songs, right? Different things that helps to lift up their, their day. Um, so these are things that you, you can do, but just be a safe space for them to feel, for them to vent, for them to, um, be a distraction.
Like do these things for them. Um, and that is super helpful. Yeah.
Jess: I have a personal question and you cannot answer it, um, if you feel like you don't wided it out, but I'm curious, how did you get in? Oh, my thing just died. No, .
Chaute: Hi. Yay. Yay.
Jess: Hold on. Mm-hmm. , I was gonna ask how you got into, talk into, uh, focusing on the horse, but hold on one second.
Okay, here we go. How did you get into focusing on divorce and life post divorce?
Chaute: Definitely. Um, so for myself, I was married for 10 plus years. And in that relationship, you know, this was the person I was with from high school and we broke up, um, when I was in college. And then when I was graduating from college, we got back together.
So throughout that, that time of being together, and it was really that Cloud nine beautiful. You know, like, oh my goodness. Um, within the relationship, like five years in this is when the relationship started to, to go downhill. So by 10 years, um, I d we decided that it's best not to be together anymore. Um, so that's what got me into, because I was already a.
Therapist. So when we met with a mediator, I was like, oh, there are different avenues that we can really do with this. So that's really how I got into, um, divorce period to, to start helping others because I went through my own brand new me journey. And as I went through that and when Alicia Keys song came out, brand New Me, I was like, oh, she is singing my life right now,
So while that was happening, that kind of geared me into it. , and that's how I started to help others to know that there is life after and you can grow and be your best self. That's how I started helping parents to have that positive parenting journey because as a single mom, There's so many times that we feel like, I really wish there was a manual
I really wish I had everything right there to kind of help me through. So through all of the things that I've experienced, um, I've done the different work for myself and went to school for different things to be able to help others. Yeah,
Jess: I think having the lived experience, like if I was going through a divorce, I would wanna work with somebody who has been through a divorce and can actually understand what it's like in real life.
Mm-hmm. . Um, now given yourself as an example, like what were. The couple of things that really helped you get through your divorce that you would recommend to other
Chaute: people? Okay. Well, some of it I mentioned, but, um, some, okay. So therapy was the first thing that I did. Um, after that I started CrossFit. , right?
Because, because when I started doing CrossFit, it kind of helped me to, um, feel empowered within myself and get healthier with my body and feel confident in that respect. Um, and then I read a lot of books. Um, I listened to podcasts. My faith was the core of any of everything, so I stayed connected with, with God.
Um, and then I had my support systems and. , that was super helpful as well. Um, and then I had a friend that was going through a divorce at the same time, so something that she always told me was, feel the feels. And I'm like, I don't wanna feel it. Mm-hmm. . So I allowed myself to take moments for self. Yeah.
Jess: Is there any one book or one podcast that you would recommend people check out or
I'm gonna be a little bit biased, but it's, it's the truth. Um, two bucks. Um, the first one I'm gonna say is How To Fix a Broken Heart By Guy Winch. This is a really good book. It's a quick read. He has a Ted Talk. Um, so it's really, really good stuff. He talks about like the science behind. What's happening when you go through a breakup and then the detox period and how to get to the other side of it.
Um, so I definitely recommend that book. And then the other one is Brand New Me Complimented, completed and Whole. It's a guide for singles and couples to grow from within. So this book I'm the author of, um, and it, it really like it's relatable stories. It's lessons and like things for you to start working through.
Um, you can skip around in it. My only recommendation is whenever you read a story, do the lessons for that story. Um, but it helps you to have a healthier relationship first with yourself cuz that's where it starts. And then with others. I love that.
Wendy: So tell us about how people can work with you if that's something that you currently offer, like where people can find you if they wanna learn more about
Definitely. Thank you for that. Um, so, uh, there are two ways that folks can work with me. Um, I have a private practice inspiring Hope Counseling services. I am a licensed psychotherapist, so I'm licensed in Florida and Georgia. So if you're looking for counseling, you can contact me. Um, and I'm providing teletherapy, so it doesn't matter if you're in Florida or Georgia.
I can assist wherever you are in, in the States. Um, but then I. Brand new me. Um, so with that, I provide, um, consultations for relationships and for positive parenting. Um, so if you need any type of help or would like just clarity on your journey to being a brand new you or to having a positive parent child relationship, um, blended family relationships, like all of those things, then I provide consultations for that.
So the two ways that you can contact me are inspire hope, health healing. Dot com and thompson.com.
Jess: Love it. And you have two books, right? I do, I do. Okay. What's the second one? How are they different? Oh,
Chaute: okay. Wait, let me get the second one for you. Okay, . So this is my very first book. It's called Brand New Me, the Pursuit of Wholeness.
It's the Journey from Pain to Greatness. Mm-hmm. . So for this book, there are a few of us. and we all tell our story of the journey from heartbreak. To getting to a brand new us and what that journey looked like, the different things that really helped us. Um, and then at the end of it, there's a note to reader.
So it kind of gives like that blueprint for the reader of the different things that they can start doing now to kind of help themselves through. . And then my second book is Brand New Me Complimented Completed in whole. It's a guide for singles and couples to grow from within. So this is a book that both, it helps singles and couples.
It's a workbook. Um, and it helps you kind of to do the work, right? Because so many times we just think, oh, when we read it, we're just supposed to know it. But if we don't apply it, then it's not sticking. Right? And all of our. Past relationships doesn't have to be baggage. They can be lessons. So this book allows you to take lessons from everything that you've gone through to be the best version of yourself.
I'm ordering that one today. ,
Jess: thank you so much. This was an amazing conversation interview. I learned a lot and I hope that our listeners did too. We really appreciate it.