The Science of Skincare

Icebreaker question. , I see you post a lot in France and you speak French, and maybe I just don't know the whole story. And you talk about how French skincare is better than American skincare. Are you French? Or like where does this connection with France

Charlotte: come? Okay. So I wouldn't say that French skincare is better.

I think that there are many things in the US that are comparable, if not better, in terms of skincare. Um, what I will say is that sunscreen internationally is, Usually better than in the United States. I am a non melanated person. I have zero protection from the sun. Skin cancer runs rampant in my family, so I take it pretty seriously.

Um, so that's actually where I think that France does a lot better. And I also think that France is more minimalist, um, which we can talk a lot about how doing the most sometimes is actually just giving yourself a face wound. But, um, says, Born in the US but I spent a lot of time in France as a kid, and my grandmother raised me for a short amount of time.

Oh, wow.

Jess: Yes. Oh, cool. I'm, I'm so excited to talk more about the sunscreen because I actually have listened to a lot of your recommendations. and I started using purto. Is it

Charlotte: called Preto? Purto, yeah. They had a huge controversy, which we can talk about. Um, They had a testing issue, um, where their sunscreen actually was at much lower levels than what they claimed.

But the reality is, is that that's actually happened in the US quite a bit as well. Um, it's an issue with sunscreen testing and we can actually talk about how sunscreen testing is pretty problematic because it's talking about erythema redness. Um, some people don't present as red, white people do. Not everybody does.

Some people actually just turn darker, right? And that's because, um, when you're more melanated, you have like, not to say that people who are more melanated don't burn. Of course there's a range, but there are some people who don't burn. And so if you're display redness, In the way that you would be measuring the sunscreen.

So, you know, there's a lot of issues with how we test sunscreen protection. Um, but I think there's more tests coming out. But again, it's like Europe. They talk about things like visible light, right? Where it's like that's starting to become something that you can claim. But what is the test for it? You see it visible light is blue light.

and while blue light from your screens, don't worry about it too much. It's more about the visible light from the sun. That's actually now a lot of research being like, oh, well there's a lot of issues with melasma. It actually might be from visible light. And so when you're looking at that piece, it's like CEP suffers more from, um, differences in pigmentation or hyperpigmentation.

It's going to be more melanated folks because there's more active melanocytes and lanzones, which then deposits pigment, which is like, for me, it's like there are pro. It's too absolutely everything. Like I, I think that when you look at more melanated skin, it also doesn't age as quickly. It maintains collagen elasticity, like there's so many different things, but every skin type, which includes how much melanin you have, is gonna have different needs.

And I just find that in Europe when you make a claim, you have to back it up. And that's actually what I like the most about their regulations and their products. It's not to say that there aren't amazing products in the US and amazing brands doing incredible things, like I would say a lot of innovation, particularly on the marketing front and trends comes from the.

Okay,

Wendy: let's reel it back because I know you're . We have, we have so many questions for you cuz you're so knowledgeable. But first, tell us about how you got into skincare.

Charlotte: Absolutely. So, um, I'm the co-founder and c e o of Due, which is a clinically vetted and price transparent skincare brand. But before that I was actually working in magazines.

Quite a few different, I was at Snapchat for a while and while I was at Snapchat, spending a lot of time in Los Angeles and I, um, saw what was happening with cannabis, uh, and I thought it was, I was like, not again. Like we are, we are not trend defying. An in an ingredient that has medicinal properties and we are certainly not doing that and making money off of it.

While so many people, largely black and brown people are in jail, like, this is ridiculous. Like, we cannot be doing this again. But we were, we did, we were, we did. There's still a lot of issues within that industry. Um, I started a newsletter with my co-founder, Marta. Around cannabis, destigmatizing it. Also talking a lot about psilocybin and just a lot of what, like the research that was coming out, um, which obviously is like these plans actually do have, you know, effects on your brain, which can be positive.

So let's talk about what that looks like. Um, and it eventually led us to Joyce Dilemmas, who is our chief of product. She was a. Um, clinical, basically clinical chemist. She was doing a lot of the patents for SkinCeuticals, doing a lot of the trials, doing a lot of the formulations. And so we started talk to her about cannabinoids.

And from my perspective, I was like, I wanna prove out what works and what doesn't work with it. Because the issue with trends is that trends go away. And for many people, cannabis is not a trend. It is something that. Benefits their life, helps them with pain, helps 'em with so many different things, even if it's just relaxing.

We've normalized alcohol to the point of actual like damage. So it's like, you know. De-stigmatizing that, but also what does it do for your skin, like I'm curious to know. And so we ended up doing clinical trials with Joyce and that's actually when we brought her on fully. And that's really when I started to get into skincare.

I got my aesthetician's license as a result of it, because if I'm leading a company, I need to understand basic skin histology. Otherwise, like, you know, you're working from a business side, but. Skincare is science. And we always forget that it's not just about your vision and your marketing, it's really what is it doing for the skin.

And so I really wanted to be able to understand that and to be able to hold my own, at least like look like I'm holding my own in a room with Joyce because she is a genius . So that's really how I got into skincare. It was through cannabis. Wow. Does

Jess: your company have a, have

Charlotte: cannabis in its products? In one product.

Um, so, you know, and I worked in beauty at Cosmo and you know, like l and I worked at all those magazines, but it wasn't product development. Um, but Deliverance is our first serum that came out and that actually has a cannabinoid complex. And the reason why we don't promote it that much is because for us, like we're not an ingredient company.

We're a formula company. Anybody can come out with an ingredient. For us, it's about holistically, how are you looking at it? What's the stability of it? How does it work? In conjunction, are we testing on multiple skin tones so that we can actually make. You know, very fair claims. Are we testing it one time a day, two time a day, two times a day?

What does that look like? And so Deliverance actually was our first product. We're super proud of it. And it is incredible at what it does, which is basically targeting irritation, um, evening tone, and then just basically plumping out the skin. It's not tread though, right? It's peptides. So it's not gonna be as like, you know, as in intense as say a t Trone would be, but I actually can use retinoids and T trone because of.

Um, product and it's a nice companion product to it. Nice.

Jess: So for people who are like, okay, I don't know what y'all are talking about, this is used to be me. Like three years ago when you said tread, I was like, oh Lord. Like there's probably like, what is Tretinoin? Um, I started using Tretinoin. I started using Deliver.

I use your, uh, I use your moisturizer anyway, we'll get into it. But, um, okay. What is a basic skincare routine, or what does that look like for folks who have no idea what's going on right now, and for folks who do and maybe need to know if what they're doing makes any sense?

Charlotte: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I have, I would say a much more maximalist routine, but I've always had a skincare routine, like since I was like a child, and that's actually my grandmother and my Mahan that got me into that, which is if you're.

Your body, you have to wash your face. You know, it's like, I feel like sometimes people just don't bring that up. And it's like if you shower every day, then why wouldn't you bring that to your face? And I live in New York, it is disgusting here. You walk through the streets and you're like, I'm definitely walking through like a fugue state of like pigeon excrement and like whatever.

The rats have left for us . So I need to wash my face. Like I sometimes wash my face twice a day, which I don't love doing cause I have quite dry skin. Basically wash, cleansing your skin is a, is a baseline. And when you live in climates like New York that are very dry in the winter, you're probably gonna want a moisturizer.

You're also gonna want an S P F, right? So for me, sunscreen, I use it for two reasons, and I think you need to be really honest about it. The first one's obviously cancer, but the second one. Second one is, is that I am prone to. Aging based off of sun damage. And so what that means is that the sun has ultraviolet rays U V A and U V B and then H E V is high energy, visible light.

These different rays of different lengths, they actually get deep into the skin and they start eating white elastin and collagen. And because I am less melanated, I have less activity in like, there's like some preliminary studies that when you are less melanated, you actually have less of that activity.

And so. I'm trying to protect what I got. And this means sunscreen all year round, right? So it doesn't matter if it's winter. Some, some people use their sunscreen as a moisturizer. I have what I like affectionately call husk skin. So the basic routine is cleanse, moisturize, S p F, and then at night just cleanse, moisturize.

Serums or treatments, right? So say you have propp pigmentation. Say you have wrinkles. Say that you want a kind of lessen, say you have, you know, um, acne. I, I recommend going to a dermatologist, quite frankly, or an aesthetician that really knows what they're doing and has like a strong, you know, track record.

Um, that's going to be something more that's treatment based. And that's when you start getting into maximalism. Yeah.

Wendy: I love that cuz there's so much consumerism in the skincare space where like, you know, I see a lot of skincare influencers and they have , you know, like over a hundred products in, in their, in their, whatever their medicine cabinet.

Um, they have a closet dedicated to skincare products and I'm just like, but who has the money or the time to be? Going through all of this stuff, so I love that you broke it down. You said spf F moisturizer, some kind of skin wash. Do you recommend a certain number for

Charlotte: spf? So I like I SPF 30 plus is definitely something that is like recommended by like dermatologists.

Like the difference between 30 and 50 is minimal, but it is there. And the biggest thing, actually the biggest difference between 30 and 50. Is that if you use an SPF F 50, um, and if you use a little bit less of it, you're actually getting like a pretty good amount of protection. Cuz in order for sunscreen to work you need to be using two milligrams per centimeter squared.

That's how sunscreen is tested on your, on, on arms for what we were talking about earlier, which is redness. And so if you're using less than that, you're actually not getting the SPF protection factor. It turns out into like a handful. And so, . Um, I use SPF 50 because I want every little bit of protection and you know, I'm not measuring out in my teaspoon things, so it's more about like a security blanket for me.

But SPF 30, if you're using a good amount, is very good protection. Okay, good.

Wendy: Now it's common practice amongst me and my friends. When the summertime rolls around, we're like, oh, we wanna get golden. We wanna go to the beach, and we wanna spend hours, you know, deepening that melanin. Is this a good practice?

Are we actually just like killing our skin ? Well, should we not be doing this?

Charlotte: Listen, and like, this is probably gonna be very controversial, what I say, but you know, for me it is not a good. It is not a good idea because I am not melanated and skin cancer runs in my family like crazy. Everybody's had sometimes malignant tumors.

Okay? So for me, I tend when I was a kid and I deeply regret it because I keep getting chunks taken outta my body. Okay? It's like not, you don't, it's like I'm 35. I'm like really young and so it's scary. Okay? Now, if you don't have a history of skin cancer, If you are more melanated, right? If you have that kind of like, like that protection, while I wouldn't say bake, it's like if you're outside in the sun for 20 minutes.

you get a little bit of a tan. I don't think it's the end of the world. What I will say, and what dermatologists have told me is that tanning is the sign of your skin responding to ultraviolet radiation. This is radiation, okay? So that is damage to the skin, and your skin is trying to protect itself, okay?

Everybody's gonna have a different level of what they're willing to have in terms. Damage. And some people, no matter what they do, they will tan, right? Like I was in Florida, I'm wearing SPF 50, head to toe was wearing protective clothing. I somehow still got a tan on my back bike riding, and I'm like, how?

And I'm not gonna berate myself and be like, oh, I'm like a, I'm ruining my skin. But dermatologist will say this, the sign of a tan is a sign of. This isn't to shame anyone. This is literally just the biological response. However, the severity of that is gonna vary by person. For me, I think the consequences are much more severe than if, say you're a Fitzpatrick six, which is one of the dark, one of the more darker, like the darkest you can be in terms of Melan Nation.

It's like I would not like be freaking out if I was a Fitzpatrick six and I had a little bit of a tan. For me, I'm like, uh, wait, was that around that weird mole that I had? Because now I need to go to the dermatologist. Yeah. Oh

Wendy: my gosh. If you go higher than 50, is it more effective? Like, you know how there's like SPF 80?

Like does that

Charlotte: even, we're talking about like fractions more effective and for me it's like focus, yes. SPF 5,000. Like there's actually regulations, like in the US you cannot, you're not supposed to really be claiming over 60, I believe. Um, just because it's like, what? It creates like a false sense of security.

Oh, if I'm using a hundred, I don't need to reapp. No, or I don't need to use as much. Right. And I kind of said that. I'm like, oh, when I use 50, I don't like cry if I don't use as much. Like, you know, even though I try to use like a big doll up. And so, you know, I think that the differences are minimal enough.

Like SPF 50, you're very protected if you're using that every day in the right amount, like you are golden. And for me, I only reapply sunscreen when I'm like really playing like outdoor sport. No, I don't play outdoor sports. I mean like being at the beach

That's like, like the recommendation is on the back of the bottle. I'm like, we're working on a sunscreen right now, so I'm like remembering all the regulatory stuff. . Yeah. I don't like reapply, like unless if I'm like outside or like drinking on a boat. Yeah. Which sounds nice.

Jess: I wanna talk a little bit about sunscreen, a little more about it, um, because I thought that I was applying a ton.

I mean, my face turns completely white. Um, it takes time for it to. For it to feel like it blends in, absorbs whatever, but I'm not applying like a table. Like what is an eyeball

Charlotte: amount? It's a fourth of a teaspoon. So it's like a little puddle in your finger I would say. So it's not like a huge doll up for me.

I do my face, like me applying like sunscreen is like really aggressive because I like to do my skincare routine fast. Like the people who. Lovingly massaging. Like sometimes I'll do like a buckle massage like right here and I'll really get in there. Cause I have T M J like, and I will get my hand in there, but it's like I'm not like one of those people who's like lovingly applying everything and waiting like 10 minutes.

So it's like for me, I just like rub and so I do my neck and my chest every day as well. Yeah. Do you do your hands as well? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Like I'll take the excess and I'll like do that. And then I also have like a sunscreen in my bag that I use the hand. Okay.

Jess: And then for reapplying, like for example, I am working in a home, in a home office, and there's two windows, like one here, one here.

That's like almost the whole wall. Is that harmful for your skin to be in front of a window?

Charlotte: So again, it's like that visible light. If you have like melasma or hyperpigmentation, like that, part of the reason of wearing sunscreen, it's not purely just for, you know, taking care of, you know, degradation of collagen.

Via UV radiation. It's the fact that it triggers hyperpigmentation and people spend a lot of money trying to reduce hyperpigmentation. It's not a problem for me because I don't have melanated skin, and so when I get a pimple or when I cut myself or whatever, I don't, I don't, Keli, I don't have any Keli scarring.

Um, which is actually a beautiful sign because it means that you have like very active like collagen, um, and elastin and like, you know, that and activity, which I'm like, that's actually a good. Um, and then the other piece is that, uh, my inflammation promote presents as redness, right? Erythema post-inflammatory erythema versus post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation.

Hyperpigmentation. When you have like those dark spots that are like purple or brown or like darker and they take a long time to, you know, get taken care of, and that's because you have inflammation. And that inflammation is then activating the melanocytes, right? It's all part of wound healing response rates.

And so when you have high energy visible light, which is daylight, right? I'm not even talking about burning, right? You're not gonna burn. I mean, unless if you're sitting like right in the ray of light, like you're not gonna really burn sitting at your window. But that kind of like indirect light, we still don't really know the full effects of that and how that impacts hyperpigmentation.

So if you're struggling with melasma, just wear sunscreen, but try to wear a s. They say that mineral sunscreen is better in terms of blocking it, um, for a visible light, but there's also plenty of sunscreens in Europe and Asia that also test for visible light. And so, um, that could be technically considered like the PA scale in Asia, right, which is actually darkening.

It's not just redness. They're looking at tanning. basically. Um, that's ano, that's one test that's done. And it's supposed to be for more, um, like different rays. So like a uva, a raise, and technically, I guess you consider it visible light. But in Europe, they have one specific claim for H E V, which is visible light.

So again, it's like not gonna, I mean, I, I'm not worried about anybody getting skin cancer from sitting by a window again, unless it's like you're in the window and like, you know, when you're driving. And you have one side of your face that's more like people will see more pigmentation, more aging, more everything on one side of their face.

That's because the sun is like beating on your face. If you have kind of indirect light. I'm not too worried about it. I wouldn't be too worried about it. I wear sunscreen every day cause it's habit and because, um, I don't wanna develop mola, which runs in my family too. Yeah, it's hormonal, right? So, but if you can help not trigger it, that's also a vibe.

Really quick

Jess: follow up question with, you mentioned mineral sunscreen. So for people who don't know, there are two types of sunscreen, my understanding, mineral and chemical. Um, I had heard from dermatologists, from my dermatologist to go with mineral. Um, however, chemical for me was someone with dry skin seems to feel better on my skin.

Do you have any

Charlotte: thoughts on. Yeah, I do. I think there's a lot of misinformation around sunscreen. I think that also something, so physical sunscreens are zinc and titanium dioxide, right? They, um, just like chemical sunscreens, they form a film on the skin and basically they absorb beauty radiation, but it's basically not your skin that's absorbing, it's the filter.

The idea that physical filters reflect light is actually like, maybe 5% more light is reflected. It's really not like anything to write home. And so when you're looking at chemical sunscreens, the concern is is that some of the filters in the United States, they've been shown to systemically absorb into the skin.

Now your skin is a barrier. Very little gets past your skin, and that's why it was like, maybe this, we should look into this more. Did anyone say that it's causing cancer? Nope. Just the presence of something does not mean that it is dangerous. Okay. Just because it's. Um, have we been using these filters for a very long time?

Yes. Is skin cancer cancer, yep. Is UV radiation? We know it to be bad. Absolutely. So from my perspective, with my tolerance for risk, none of these filters are being banned anywhere else in Europe. I think that they're being limited. Some of them, like homos for example, in Europe you can only use it at certain percentages, whereas yes, in the US you can use it at much higher levels.

So what I would say is if you are concerned and you want. The lowest amount of risk known to mankind. No, that, you know, these chemical filters have been proven time and time again to be. Sure. Use physical sunscreen if that's something that you want. Understand that the formulas are gonna be chalkier. Um, they're probably gonna dry out your skin because zinc isn't astringent, right?

It's soaks, it's like clay. It's like it soaks up the oil on your face and when you're like us, we, we don't have any oil to begin with. And I think that also, remember, if it's a brand telling you, They're trying to sell you their version. So be very, very wary. A lot of this information is coming from brands and some of these studies are funded by brands.

So we're just kind of like Syd. I'm just kind of sitting here and I'm like, find what works for you. Um, buying the sunscreen that you can use every single day. And for me, I do prefer the sunscreen filters in Europe simply because they don't sting my eyes. I have no concerns about chemical sunscreens here.

I coat myself in chemical sunscreens cause I can't use physical sunscreen on my body. It takes too long to rub it and I don't like looking like, I'm like, you know, a cast member of the Walking Dead.

Wendy: Yeah,

I wanna touch on genetics because I feel like there's not enough talk about genetics when it comes to skincare. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked like, oh, what's your, you know, skincare regimen? And like, honestly, up until like two or three years ago, like there was no regimen. I was barely washing my face and I'm just like, it's literally all genetics

So, uh, can you touch on

Charlotte: that? Yeah. And I think. It's, it's a really good point to bring up because people always say to me like, oh, your skin is just genetics. And I'm like, yes. A lot of it is genetics. Absolutely. But also if I didn't use skincare, I know what my skin would look like and I know what has changed and what hasn't changed.

Right. Like you have your baseline and then it's like, I'm like, I go either above or below it. Right? And so I think that another thing people don't think about with genetics is, is melanin. Right. If you have more melanated skin, you are not going to be presenting signs of aging at the same, at the same rate.

I went to this Dior event for a launch they had, and there's this dermatologist that I adore that was just like so spot on about everything that she was saying, and I was like, thank you for saying it so clearly. But it was like, you know, showing pictures of different people at different Melan nation levels and how they age differently.

And obviously environment and your habits will have an impact if you're a smoker. Yeah, things are gonna happen. Not great, but inside too, right? Um, drinking a lot, not sleeping, like all of those things like in moderation, like, you know, drinking obviously fine, but I'm talking like if you're binge drinking every day, it's obviously gonna have an effect on your appearance, your wellbeing, your brain, like all the things.

And so she was showing these pictures of different people, and it's like if you look at somebody who's 40 years old and black, and somebody who is 40 years old and white, that difference in aging is gonna present very differently. So me asking, oh, what do you do for your skincare routine? It's like, well, you've had melanin, therefore built in sun protection.

You may have more love. Like layers in your epidermis, which is your high, like top layer of skin. There might, there's some research that shows like there's a different like response with collagen and fibroblasts, which is what keeps your skin from like sagging and keeps it like all together. So there are so many different things, and even just like, you know, practices, right?

So if you stay outta the sun all the time, your skin's gonna look pretty. Pretty good. Like my grandmother doesn't use really skincare. She, she has a tub of NEA that she's had like, you know, since like the war and like , you know, she just doesn't go in the sun and her skin is impeccable. And so I think that there are so many layers.

Like, and for me, people ask me about my skin. I'm like, I'm using sunscreen since I was like 25. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And that's cuz that, that was the first skin cancer scare that my family had. I wasn't using enough, I was using a little bit, but I was still using something. That has a huge impact, the cumulative effect, and so that's why I think like asking people ask me for my skincare too, because of what my skin looks like.

I'm like, ask me because of my expertise and what I know, not necessarily what my skin looks like. Yeah. Yes, it's a byproduct of it, but a lot of this is genetics. . Yeah. And I'm trying to keep my genetics. I'm like, let's see how far we can keep this going. Right? Yeah.

Jess: Yeah. We had a, another skincare expert on years ago, dermatologist, and um, she was saying that everyone has like a different, I don't know if the term was like setpoint or something, a threshold maybe, where it's like, yeah, maybe you're melanated and your threshold is a little different, but if you don't take care of your skin, like at some point, Theoretically, um, you know, you might, I don't wanna say like show sign because it's like I, okay.

That's another thing too. Let's talk about that , like the aging thing, because I feel like a lot of the skincare stuff is very rooted in like anti ageism and then like we can't get older and sagging skin and all this and that. And I think especially for women, it's hard, right? Because you have two options.

We have three options. One is just like genetically your skin is quote, like useful and you know that's good for you in terms of getting through society. And then the second option is you do show

Charlotte: early signs of aging

Jess: and, um, people are always commenting, right? Like even sex in the city. The reboot. It's like everyone's talking about how they look and skin and this and that and, but there, it seems like most of them haven't, you know, had any surgery or fillers and so that's like one option, but everyone's like has something negative to say.

And then the other option is like the real house wise, where you do have all the Botox and the fillers and the surgery or Kardashians, and then everyone's talking about that too. Like, oh, how did they succumb to the pressures? And it's like, you really can't

Charlotte: win. Right? There is no such thing as aging gracefully.

Like when somebody's like age gracefully, I. According to whom you, because if I listen to the person that commented right below you, they have a different opinion and then the person below them has another different opinion. Like, you can't live for other people. And what I would say is that, um, people don't like seeing older women.

And I'm like, I'm convinced it's. Because people don't like women in positions of authority and in showing aging, it's like you are clearly like more wise and like, well, you have no more value anymore because like, you're not like this like, like, and I, I hate to say it, but it's like you're not fuckable anymore.

So it's like, you know, very much so like property based and the fact that it's like you are a thing, you are not a person. And this isn't to say that we don't shame men for how they look like baldness is a thing that comes to mind quite a bit, but it said such. Better degree than what women go through.

And women are scrutinized at such like a intense level. And you're never the right age, right? Because when you're young, when I was a teenager, I was like, oh, you're jail bait. And then after that you are. Then after that you're 21. Oh, better enjoy it while it lasts. Cuz you're gonna be an old hag soon and after that you hit 30 and they're like, you're a hag.

And it's like, I at 40 and then at 40 you disappear. Yeah. And so, you know, I would say that from my pers. Whenever somebody's being really judgmental on the internet, I always try to think back to like, you know, it's like, what would me and my friends say? And I'm like, we do not talk like this. And like, I'm I, you, you gotta keep reinforcing.

It's like, it's either aging or death, so make your choice. Mm-hmm. . Um, I hope it's just aging because really at the end of the day, like. . It is a privilege to a degree because the one thing I will say is that in a country where there is no universal healthcare, how much of a privilege is it actually to age?

Because aging means that you have more health conditions and it is expensive, and therefore it is privilege to age truly because you need to have the money to do it. Mm-hmm. . So there's like a lot to un unpack there. But you know, from my perspective, and with aging, it's. It is something I think about. I don't like seeing my face change.

I don't like it when people say, oh, Charlotte, you look tired. Whenever I hear about my friends getting treatments or any like, you know, surgery or anything like that, it's because they literally say, I'm tired of people telling me I look tired. Yeah. Which is so depressing because they're like, I just want people to get off my back.

And so I, I think that that's something that, it's why I don't really do anything yet. I know a lot of people my age, I'm very young, but a lot of people my age. My skin tone are getting all sorts of things done, and I'm like, I just need to see what's gonna happen. Yeah. And it's almost like I use skincare, I use the things that I use, but I'm like, I just need to kind of see what's gonna happen because it is so much pressure and it's almost, um, it's almost untenable.

And I don't know if what the solution is other than like we have to stop looking at ourselves on our selfie cameras all the time.

Wendy: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it needs to be part of a, a bigger shift when it comes to this whole like, aging conversation because there's so much like vagueness, I think especially for women, like when we're asked about our age, it's like you p you play the guessing game like, well, how old do you think I am?

Which I'm like, oh my God, here we go. Yeah. Or like, especially amongst black people, there's always that conversation about like, oh, you don't look your age. Yeah. But I feel like it kind of plays.

Charlotte: Everyone looks exactly the age they are. Yeah. And that is personality. It's like people said, like I, I remember I once got this comment cause I was talking about microneedling and one comment was like, wow, I thought you were at least in your mid forties.

And then the next comment was like, wow, I thought you were 25. And I'm like, nobody knows what any age is actually supposed to look like. Right. ? I don't know. Nobody knows. I look 35 because I am 35. Yeah. Thank you. Conversation over and like, it is a backhanded compliment when you say you look good for your age.

Because the idea is, is that you should, you should, you're not attractive or that you're not beautiful or you don't have value when you're older. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Jess: Like

Charlotte: who really depressing. It's super depressing and I don't have a solution because it's like a cultural shift. Yeah. But I think part of it is we have to take the shame out of beauty.

We have to take these backhanded compliments out and we have to change. I change on how I speak. I correct people when somebody's like, oh, you don't look 35. I'm like, what's wrong with looking 35? And I make them a little bit uncomfortable that the next time they go to say that maybe they don't. Yeah.

Great comeback. It's meant to be. It's meant to be a compliment, but it's really. Yeah. Not because what I 35 is so young, or not even middle-aged, it's literally defined as Yeah. Well, yeah. What?

Jess: Uh, it's just all crazy. When I turned 30, it, and I'm almost 40, but when I turned 30 it was like, I kept, I started getting that like, oh my God, 30.

You know, like, I'm like, wait, am I supposed to look and feel like something other than I, I don't know. It was just like very weird. And, and now that I'm almost 40, it's like looking back and 30 is so young to, even for people to have that mindset that like, you should look a certain way or, um, it has a significance.

Charlotte: Exactly. And I just think it's really, she looks terrible for her ages. Like, I wanna, like, actually it makes me murderous in terms of like my, my, my rage because I'm like, you have no idea what this person went through. You have no idea what they lived through. Rights are. You have no idea what their socioeconomic status is.

You have no idea, like, honestly, aging in society when you're, it's brave to do it when you're in Hollywood. Like, yes. It's fucking depressing because you're literally just existing. And for Sarah Jessica Parker to just exist like the things people'll say about her on the internet, I'm like, y'all are gonna be old one day.

Get dumb dumb. I know.

Jess: That's the thing that, that's like crazy. It's like people just don't realize it.

Charlotte: and we grapple with it as a company because like, listen, like I want to, like, I wanna ease into things. I don't wanna like dive headfirst, like I don't, I want my skin to look the best that it can look and also be the most comfortable it can be because you know, when your skin gets older, does dry out and that's.

Very uncomfortable, but it's like, how do we not play into the fear of aging and make it more of an experience where it's like, this is the histological effect of what's gonna happen if you use this? Make a decision based off whether you want that or not. But it's not like your wrinkles are showing, erase them.

Like, yeah, that's not, there's a way that we can change how we talk about things because, you know. Fear of aging is not, you know, just for women. I mean, look at all the work that Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk have had done, right? No. Have they? Yeah. And they, I mean, not to pass ju like I say, I'm passing two past judgments, , but it's like, you know, I, I think that it's not, it's definitely not reserved for just women.

It's just the pressure for women and also the expense for women. And it's already expensive being a woman, and we make less. And you have children and your body changes and I'm like, can we get a break and can we not be mean to each other? Thank you. That's my TED talk. Yeah. Yeah. Here. .

Wendy: Um, so as dieticians we're, we're always being asked about like, what foods can you eat for like skincare?

And like, honestly there isn't that much research that I've come across when it comes to this. Um, have you come across anything related to like food or supplements? I feel like. Usually like dairy and chocolate for whatever reason, or like tied to skincare. I think maybe because like for people going through puberty mm-hmm.

um, you know, like they ate these foods and, uh, it triggered acne. I don't know. But, um,

Charlotte: you're allergic. Like I'm allergic. I'm, you're gonna feel so bad for me in a minute. I'm allergic to garlic. Oh, oh. Yeah, that sucks. Thank you for your, thank you for your sympathy. I started breaking out, um, and getting weird rashes and so I think that, like to say that there's no connection to food and skin.

I think it's, I think it's more, it's like, is your body like, like if you drink a lot, like I don't look good the next, if I go off on a weak bender, I look terrible, but that's okay. Like cuz I just look tired and I look like, you know, dehydrated because I am. And also there's probably just like my eyes probably just root as soulless, so that probably doesn't help with the whole aesthetic.

Yeah. . And so I think that there's things like that where it's related to it, but in terms of like supplements, . I find it really hard because people love their collagen smoothies and I don't wanna stop them from drinking. If you like it and if your source is okay and ethical and you're fine with the ethics of it, like do your thing.

But I think it's really hard to talk about, say, taking a probiotic for the health of your skin, because it's like that is such a complex mechanism, and if it was that effective, then probably a pharmaceutical company would have taken. That, taking that upon themselves. Um, and then you look at something like Accutane, which basically kills the oil glands in like your skin.

And it's very, very effective for deep, deep, cystic, persistent, persistent acne that, you know, Accutane is not for everyone. There are dangers associated with it. Absolutely. I'm not minimizing that, but it's, um, it's pretty incredible if it's used in the right way and in the right setting and in moderation.

So it's like, of course you can eat things that then have, um, a result on your skin. It's just, I don't know if I've personally seen something that has really done it. I think it's really hard when you eat something for your body to tell, to go to your skin. Like your skin is like your protective meat sac, right?

It's like it is a vital organ, but it's like not necessarily like, Gonna go there if like, that's what you take a supplement for. Like collagen, it's just protein. There's some research on Dyl Hydroxyproline, um, which is an amino acid, right? Like by peptide. And so there is some research that can help, but um, you can also apply it topically.

I think that. People are so obsessed with the idea of like, beauty from the inside out. And the reality is like, it's your protective meat, Zack. Like, are you gonna try to like fix like the outside of your car by putting something inside of it? Like, no to like pass through all of that. It's like, no, you just like clean the outside of your car and you sh find that up.

And so it's like, that's how I kind of see it. Or I'm like, just, it's the, it's the shell. Like you can fix the shell from the outside. Yeah.

Jess: That makes perfect sense. So in terms of safety, Of these skincare products, and especially as you mentioned in the US, things sometimes can feel a little more lax, like something's banned in Europe, but it's fine here.

Um, Is, what are the things that we should be looking out for? Is there a website that you recommend checking?

Charlotte: So I will say that there's a lot of misinformation out there. Um, sites like the E W G are not very reliable. They tend to take data. Um, and I'm sure you notice this with food as well, with the dirty dozen.

Um, but they cherry pick science and either you, you either go by, or you're a pseudo scientist, and when you cherry pick science, you become a pseudo scientist. And so for me, I'm not a scientist, but this is the one thing that every. Every scientist has told me and dermatologist and anybody that works in stem, it's like either you use science to help you form an opinion or you have your opinion and then you're trying to use data to back it up.

Mm-hmm. . And when you're in that realm like that is a very scary realm to be in. So, you know, the E W G I do think they do. Some good things in terms of environmental protection and like, you know, I, I, I believe that they were a big part of the modernization of Cosmetics Regulation Act, which is creating more standards within, um, the F D A to have things more codified because the law in the United States, they, you have to have a safe cosmetic.

That definition is very too broad for my, my taste. I think we need everybody to fo follow good manufacturing practices that, um, contract manufacturers where you make these big scale products. Like they have to be registered with the F fda a if there's a problem, the f FDA has to be able to go in there.

Like there are things like that that should be done. And that has just been pa it actually just got signed into law. It's called Mara. Um, By Biden, um, on December 29th. What's interesting though is that a lot of these organizations and a lot of these beauty companies aren't applauding the F D A for taking these steps, which makes me feel like it's just marketing for them because I'm like, wait, we finally have progress?

And it's like crickets. And I'm like, cuz it doesn't help you sell your mascara. Um, and so I don't love apps that assign toxicity ratings to things because when you actually look at the citations half the time, it's like, okay, the study is a rat that. Did like a hundred gallons of it and I'm like, oral ga when youk, uh, a being with an ingredient is very different than me applying two pumps on my face.

Yeah. Totally. And so endocrine disruption's a bit harder. I mean, I, y'all probably know far more than me on like food and all the stuff that people get really worried about there, but it's like, I remember the whole soy debate and like isof, flans and things like that. It's like those are endocrine receptors, but it doesn't mean good or bad if you look at kind of like the overall effect, et cetera.

And then it's like you look at skincare, people talk about endocrine disruption and I'm like, yeah, but all these brands are using soy and isof flavin. So like how? Like what are we talking about here? And is. The thing from you is safety is like, is somebody trying to sell me something and are they trying to scare me into buying it because fear is an incredible motivator to get me to buy.

Or have they really done the work to make sure that their product is more safe, not using things like nature fallacies. Just because something is natural does not make it safe. It does not. Right. Thank you. Mercury is natural. Mercury is natural. I don't wanna eat mercury. I'm good. Yeah. Don't wanna. Either.

And so I think that that's kind of how I approach safety and, um, understanding that, you know, um, regulation is getting better. The reason why regulation in Europe is better is because they do a lot of pre-market vetting. Mm-hmm. , whereas in the us, like, I can go and sell my products on Etsy tomorrow. I can go sell it on direct to consumer site tomorrow.

Right. Like, yeah. It's just, there's more gray areas and so what I would say is, The best way to find safe products is just ask them, are you like, where are you manufacturing it? Are you using good manufacturing practices? Do you have a lot in batch number? What is the expiration date? Have you done any stability testing?

Are you using preservatives? You want preservatives? You want preservatives, , because mold is really, can be really scary,

Jess: right? Yeah. It's always like, yeah,

Charlotte: like that. Things

Jess: like that. So you're saying there's no website to go to to.

Charlotte: Okay. Um, you can go to the FDA's website and see what they're recalling.

It's always untrusted. Mm-hmm. . Okay. Um, I would say like, the thing is like, there's e W G, there's yucca, there's skin deep, there's safe cosmetics. I've gone to all of those and like half the time I'm like, the studies that they use as citations aren't even related to the product or the ingredient. Hmm. So I'm like, that's a bunch of bullshit.

And then they say things like, things are banned in. And then I go and I'm like, it's not banned in Europe. It's just a prescription drug just like it is in the United States. Oh, wow. And parabens are not banned in Europe like justice for parabens. Okay. Long chain parabens are banned and those are increasingly being phased out of skincare in the US and they do think they should be taken outta skincare in the us but that's like saying that soy should be banned rather than like some like derivative of So, Right, dangerous.

We need to stop collapsing things and taking the nuance out of things cuz you're scaring people. And then they're izing that and they're sharing that gospel different cause they're trying to protect their community. And so I don't think, quite frankly, I do not think that clean beauty brands fully understand their ramifications.

I don't, I don't think that anyone's malicious in doing this. I think you start in this because you have good intention. I fully believe that, but it's like now that we're seeing the ramifications, like we need to roll it back. And I think the EWG needs to undo a lot of the harm that they've done and a lot of the fear that they've put into people without actually providing more safety.

Wendy: Yeah. And also like some of these companies are making so much money by positioning themselves as like non-toxic clean beauty. And this translates into the food space as well, cuz there's like the clean eating, the, you know, whatever these ingredients. And it's the same thing. It's like, is this actually based in science?

Another big one is like, Sustainable. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a skincare product that's, you know, marketed as sustainable and it comes in like a bunch of plastic wrapped up. It's a huge box that can't fit through my door. I literally just got another package while we were and it's like, are y'all scamming people?

Charlotte: Because it's giving a. Yeah, and I think that that's all part of like the same like kind of story and the thing where I'm like, is somebody trying to sell you something or are they actually doing the work? And it's like, you know, I like to say that there is no such thing as sustainability and that kind of like table sets things, everything that you do and every.

Purchase that you make, that is consumption. So decide whether you really want it or need it, right? Versus trying to buy something just based off sustainability. But I am starting to see customers holding brands to account in terms of sustainability claims. I dunno if you guys saw that, that Glossier launched a deodorant today.

And it came in a plastic package with plastic refill pieces and everyone was like, wait, that's not sustainable. And the thing is, you can have that packaging, right? Say there's a refill system, so you have cost savings, but brands just can't say things are sustainable just because it's a refill, right? Um, and so that was really interesting to me where I was like, , you know, brands need to be more careful about when they claim sustainability because consumers are becoming aware much more quickly on the sustainability front.

Cause I think it's easier to understand than they are on the safety front. Right? Because we can talk about aluminum based deodorant and the fact that the guy that literally did the study that showed a small causal link between, um, aluminum per into perseverance and breast cancer, he literally was like, I wasn't saying that it causes breast cancer.

We need like a thousand more studies. To actually do that. He's like, I, he's like, it upsets me that people are selling products based off of this. Yeah. Yes. And, and then there's like, there's a whole industry because of this. Yeah. And so with alternatives, by the way, that haven't been tested for breast cancer.

So you like, you know what I mean? It's like, it's just what we keep going on this wheel of, um, you know, it's just, it's a great marketing pitch. The idea of don't trust the government. Trust us. The corporation we're, yeah. Yeah. And for whatever reason, it's a good way looking at it, it's really compelling.

It's like we're a small brand that's like the, and it's like half the time they have investments from like huge companies or they themselves are actually like, run by like big companies. And it's just like the most, um, bizarre value proposition to me. Cause I'm like, why would you trust a company that literally just needs to make money in order to, that needs to make money in order to survive.

Versus the government institution. And I understand people don't trust the government in many ways, especially medical institutions. You know, I am a white lady, so I have a lot of privilege, but like as a woman, like I had maybe like 15 years of like atrocious period pain that nobody believed. Hmm. I said it was normal, it's not.

Um, so I understand not always trusting the institutions, but I'm like, I also wouldn't go trust a company as somebody who runs. Yeah,

Jess: I mean, well first of all, the interesting thing about your company is I didn't even know it was your company. You don't really promote it that much. .

Charlotte: It's in my bio. It's in my bio.

Jess: Oh, ok. Well, like not on your page is the only way I realized it was your company, cuz Haley Bieber had said that the, the, um, the, what is it called? The moisturizer, but how. You know what I'm talking about, your moisturizer. Anyway, she had said that it was her favorite product and I somehow I saw that and then I go, I see it on your page.

And I'm like, oh wait, this is your company. Cool. So then I tried it and I, by the way, love it everybody, you have to try it. Um, it's bar b Barrier Relief or what? Sorry,

Charlotte: how do you say it? ? Instant Angel. Instant

Jess: Angel, okay.

Wendy: like

Charlotte: that.

Jess: I got it wrong, but. Anyway. I don't know my point, but yes, everything you're saying makes total sense.

I have one, um, question back to sunscreen. So how do you convince your partner to wear sunscreen or to do anything for their skin? Because, like my husband is just not here for it.

Charlotte: I mean, I always, the way that I, I've gotten partners in the past to like wash their faces. You think it's gross to not wash your body, but you avoid your face.

The thing that's exposed all day along to these New York streets, I'm like, you wanna bring the street into your pillow. That's weird. Right. Um, and also because like, they're like hygiene flag a lot like, cuz like they would like work out or whatever and they'd be like, need to like, you know, shower or whatever.

And I'm like, but you're like avoiding. This part, like the part that I have to be exposed to rude. Um, so that actually got them to start washing their face. And I think, I think with sense, like, I think with that it's just like simplicity. It's like a sunscreen's, a moisturizer. And when they figure that out, they're like, oh, then I'll just use them as a two in one.

And I'm like, exactly like you love a, you love a three in one shampoo, body wash. Does attack conditioner, like whatever, like they love like a collapsed thing. At least people that I've dated. Not everyone I've, I've dated a few people who are very obsessed with skincare and would just steal things from me.

Um, so I would say is like just doing that piece and then also it's like, do you like your face now? Okay. Using this will maintain the face for longer. Yeah. Yeah. The face that you have. Yeah. Good point. Um,

Wendy: so in wrapping, can you talk to us about this podcast that you were telling us about before you might be starting a podcast?

It sounds fascinating. Tell us more.

Charlotte: So my co-founder, Joyce and I are doing a deep dive look into the clean living movement because I think we really wanna understand the emotions and why things are the way they are. And so when you're looking at clean living, I think that. The way that we use it today, I do have to believe that people are using it with good intentions, but the actual roots of it are pretty nefarious.

Um, and it has to do with the ideas of purity, purity of the body, and there's like the ties to religion, but also the ties to eugenics and maintaining a clean population. Um, which stems back to, uh, John Harvey, uh, Kellogg, um, who is really kind of, I would say, the person that was one of the bigger proponents in this movement because he was a doctor and used.

To justify a lot of really fucked up ideals, and eugenics actually is using science to justify racism. And so looking at that, seeing how that actually built out a lot of our food policy in the United States, which eventually ultimately impacted the wellness and beauty industry, and really trying to kind of look at it from an empathetic lens, because at the end of the day, I am very much so of the mindset that the only way that we can change kind of the industry as a whole is if we create an open space where people can take accountability, maybe admit they were wrong, but we don't have to negotiate them.

This idea of like dragging brands like, you know, like, you know, just all the time is really exhausting. And why would you change if, when you try to change or admit that you're wrong, people are just gonna scream at you. It makes no. . And so for me, I really wanna see change within the industry. I do think we can have it positively be changed.

I love the beauty industry. Um, and so it's really about trying to take kind of like a holistic look at it and where we can go from here. And so the podcast we're calling it right now, like working title is like, do we have to, and it's like, do we have to, and then talk about, and then we're gonna do like a, an investigative multi-part series into, um, a singular topic.

And this one will be the Clean Living Movement.

Jess: I'm so excited. When does that drop?

Charlotte: I don't know. I just, we've written the first like, three episodes. Okay. So we're gonna be filming probably, um, probably in the ne probably in the next like three months. Um, okay. And maybe we will want to bring you guys on to help us talk about, Ooh.

Because we didn't get talk about food. And for me, the way that food has become like a pipeline directly for beauty language is pretty wild. Yeah.

Jess: It's really tough.

Wendy: Have you read Fearing The Black Body by Sabrina

Charlotte: Strings? No, but it's on my list now. . Yeah, you

Wendy: should read it because she talks about this whole eugenics movement and, you know, Kellogg and all this and like the history behind it and the beauty ideals, and it's more from like a nutrition and weight perspective, but this all ties in because it's, you know, the, the concept of beauty and how that's kind of changed, um, throughout the years and it's informed.

Charlotte: You know, whiteness and poverty was demonized by John h Kellogg. And, um, eating this way was actually to differentiate yourself from poorer classes, immigrant classes, all these things. And so when you, when you kind of understand the roots of it, it actually does make a lot of sense, a lot of the language that we use today.

But then it makes you very uncomfortable. And especially for me, somebody who like, even though like John h would've hated me, cuz I'm Leonard Brown. It's disgusting, but it's like today, you know, things have like, you know, obviously shifted quite a bit and it's like, you know, it's, it's really fascinating and really dark and there's so much that we, we need to change.

And so I'm hoping that by educating people we'll kind of open up that dialogue. Yeah. And people will be open to, to bringing that into their marketing, hopefully. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ,

Jess: that's great. Oh, what a fun conversation. I wish we had all the time in the world cuz I have so many more questions, but they don't like us making our episodes more than 40 minutes.

for producers.

Charlotte: say, I gotta

Jess: keep within that. Um, but hopefully we can have you back one day and ask kind of, uh, more follow up questions, but thank you so much. Uh, by the way, can you share, uh, more about where people can find you? Absolutely. Your, your company.

Charlotte: Um, so you can find me at Charlotte Parlay, um, that is the French word to speak, which as I'm sure you've noticed, I like to do.

And then my company is Duskin, so it's at Duskin, D I E U X skin. Thank you.

Wendy: Yay. Thanks. Thank you, Charlotte. Great. That

Jess: was so good. Oh my god. I have so many more questions, but I know you're keeping it

Charlotte: keeping at 1 0 1. I love your account so much. The post that you made yesterday. I just, you know, when you're like double tap on every slide and you're, oh.

I'm like, wait, I feel like this, but I'm like, I'm still gonna do it cause it feels good. . I, I had an, when I was a child, I was like, I was anorexic and I also had to go into, um, like a facility to, to gain weight back. And, uh, it's.