How to make online dating NOT suck w/ Hinge Director Logan Ury

Jessica: So I have an icebreaker for you. . Maybe it's not an ice break breaker, I don't know, but a lot of people, especially after the pandemic, are saying that online dating right now is just a complete dumpster fire, and it's just not good and it's worse, is what I'm hearing.

Do you have any stats to help give people hope and encourage them to listen to this whole

Logan: episode? Ooh. Oh, that's a good one. . Hmm. You know, it's been so interesting because I started my job at Hinge basically the week the pandemic like went crazy in New York and in the rest of the United States. So I feel like I've been in this unique situation to track dating over the last three years.

Really? Like very pandemic heavy. And so there was like all these interesting moments, like people actually were messaging a lot during the pandemic. People like were so excited to date in 2021 when the vaccine came out and all these different things. And then I was sort of hoping like people would learn all these lessons during the pandemic and then dating in 2022 would be better than ever.

I'm also hearing what you're talking about, which is a sense of. Burnout or people feel like now that they can travel again, other people are really flaky and so just wanna echo that. I'm also hearing those concerns. I don't have a specific stat around like why, you know. No, it's a good question. I don't have a specific stat that comes to mind, but in general I can share that.

The majority of couples meet online these days, and that's was true starting in like 20 17, 20 18, and it's only has increased since then. And so it's one of those things where if you wanna give yourself the best shot at love having an app being unhinge, that's. should be part of your dating portfolio. It doesn't mean that you can't go to bars, it doesn't mean you can't ask friends for intros.

It doesn't mean you can't ask out your cute friend that you maybe wanna turn into more than friends. But it does feel like online dating is the best way that people can really like get their reps in, go on more dates, practice dating, see what kind of person they wanna be with. And so it's sort of like part of a healthy dating regimen these days, and it will continue to be that for a long time.

Yeah,

Jessica: that's helpful. , especially the fact that most people these days are meeting their partners online. I mean, it seems like most people I know who've met folks online, especially if it's within the last seven years. . So you are a behavioral scientist, turn dating coach, and I know everybody asks you this question, but for people who aren't familiar with you, I have to ask it as well.

First, what is a behavioral scientist? And second, how do you turn a behavioral scientist into

Logan: a dating coach? So that's such a great question. Yeah. So behavioral science is the study of why we make certain decisions, and so it's really combining two fields, psychology and economics. So economics is often assuming that people are rational, right?

It's like if it costs this much, this many people will buy it. When it costs this much fewer people will buy it. It's really assuming that people are always doing. Uh, cost benefit analysis and pro-con list and all this stuff. And then psychology is really the opposite. It's thinking about like, okay, like people have all these quirks and people have biases, and why do we, um, you know, feel this thing because our mother did this thing to us.

So it's really thinking about like, Why people are the way they are. And then economics is really thinking about decision making. And then behavioral science combines the two and is basically like, this is how our psychology affects our decision making. And this is why we often act in irrational ways.

And so a common example would be people know that they should exercise more, eat healthier, and oh, am I veering? Is this good to, is

Jessica: this okay? No, you're fine. Yeah. . Okay. Oh, you're talking about cuz the, the form ? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're totally

Logan: fine. Okay. I might start that one over. So I'm just gonna say like, okay, , a common thing is that people know that they should save more money and spend less money.

But why is it so hard to do that? And even if on January 1st that's your resolution, like it's really hard to do it. And so, Behavioral science is really an explanation of why are we making these decisions that are against our own best interests? Why are we acting this way? And so I love applying it to dating because it's saying like, why do you always go after the fuck boys?

Why do you feel like you need to end a relationship after three months? Like really understanding what's the psychology behind? how you act the way you do. And then in terms of dating, coaching, it's like I've had this interest for a long time. I tried to find different ways to make this my career, and I really started by doing free dating coaching for people and just learning like what were effective techniques, what are interventions that work, how can I help people?

And really start to think about how can I use my knowledge of behavioral science and decision making and habit formation to help people change the way. . Hmm.

Wendy: I love that. Yeah. Cuz I think a lot of people are like on autopilot when they're doing online dating, uh, because of the nature of the swiping and just kind of going through so many different profiles that you don't pause to think about what might be coming up for you or like what is the intention behind you being on these apps.

So I really like that behavioral. Part of things. Um, and first of all, I love Hinge. It's like my favorite dating app. Good to hear . I tell everyone about it. Who's looking today? I'm like, go on Hinge. I had such a positive experience being on there. Um, and I wanna talk about dating profiles because I think a lot of people struggle to like put together.

a dating profile that, you know, I don't know, is catchy, is like different, unique, but then you know, you go on there and it looks like everyone kind of has the same thing on their profile. , mm-hmm. . So what are some things that can help your profile stand out and like what are some dos and don'ts to creating a profile?

Logan: Yeah. This is a great question and it's so funny, I think I just posted something on Instagram yesterday where this I saw that Really? . Yeah. She's so funny. I think it was like, hi, I'm Mark from Hinge. Um, I know the best spot in town for tacos, first round of me if it's

Wendy: tequila. I've seen that so many times.

Yeah. Looking for

Logan: a good flirt to roast ratio. Some of these things are so cliche and so it, it really is important to avoid cliches. I've even heard this term lately called beige flags. So we know what red flags are. We know what green flags are. Beige flags are actually when your profile is just very basic or cliche and you fade into the background.

And so you really wanna have things on there that feel specific, that feel like you and help you stand out. And so if you know that things like the dead fish picture are saying first rounds on me, if are cliche, then avoid. And so some of my tips are that you wanna have variety. You really wanna tell a story.

So sometimes I look at people's profiles and I'm like, all I find out from this is that you have a dog and you're really into your dog. Or, all I know is that you love anime or you love sports. It's like they've really thought about one part of their personality and that everything is, is really. Feeding into that.

And instead they can think about, okay, well I have the side of myself where I'm super into hanging out with my grandma and I learned to cook Italian food with her, and I'm gonna have a prompt that talks about that. Or, I am a big Beyonce fan and I'm gonna talk about that. And so just having variety and telling her story is the foundation in terms of photos.

Photos matter a lot. I wish I could say that the photos and the prompts matter the same, but people are really gonna decide if they even wanna look through the rest of your profile based on the pictures. So that's the first step in terms of photos, you want that first picture to be a clear headshot. I can see what you look like.

There's no filters, there's no sunglasses. Just, hey, here's my face. And then you also wanna have photos that show you doing an activity you love, you with friends and family. Show me you have a social life and um, a full body shot. That's something that people are looking. and then with the prompts. Do you know this thing in humor?

I feel like I've heard it all the time. It's like the specific is the universal. It's like if you just say something like, I'm kind and passionate. It's kind of like, what does that mean? But if you say like, I suck at parallel parking, like by being more specific people actually really. Feel that more. Or I know a woman who rodee like, I don't know how to ride a bike.

And so many men were messaging her being like, I'll teach you. How is that possible? Like I really think by digging into the specific quirks of yours, you stand out, it feels authentic. There's so many more opportunities for humor, and that's what people respond to. And so that on the prompts, that's really my number one tip, is creating this.

Something that people can grab onto and to connect to. So if it's all the dog pictures, sure they can say, what a cute dog, what's your dog's name? But if you put something like, I don't know how to ride a bike, that's somehow an entry point into a conversation where people can really engage with you. Yeah.

Jessica: Speaking of the parallel parking, I, that was my thing when I was online dating. Um, my superpower, because I'm really good at parallel parking. That's such a funny co. Yeah, and I would get a lot of, um, people who would message me and have something to say like either they suck or they're good. I agree with you.

Like the more the specific things are universal, that's a great way of looking at it. Are there any photos people should not have on their

Logan: profile? . Yeah. I'm curious to hear what you all think, but the ones that we found in our research at Hinge are people are not into those gym selfies. I think it's kind of a weird flex, maybe pun intended.

Like I go to the gym, it's like, ah, we're gonna be able to tell from your photos, you know? You don't have to have the gym selfies. Selfies in general perform worse, and people really don't like photos of somebody smoking just generally considered a. Okay. And what

Jessica: about when people have so many photos of friends that you can't tell who they are?

Like do you put a circle around your face? Face? Yeah.

Logan: Oh yeah. I'm so glad. Weird. Yeah, I'm glad you reminded me of that one. Yeah, I always call them Where's Waldo photos? Like the ones that come to mind are like, 10 guys on a boat where they're all like wearing baseball caps and look the same, or 10 women who are all bridesmaids and they all have the same hairdo and the same dress and you can't tell.

It's like, honestly, I would just remove those pictures because why are you making us do work? Like it's not like people are gonna be like, wow, which one is she? Let me compare her hair length. They're just gonna be like, next. This is too hard. So it's like make it easier for people.

Jessica: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Grateful.

That's helpful. I don't know why. I really liked online dating when I, and I would help all quote, help cuz it's like a passion of mine with the profiles and responses and things like that. Um, like what to say or how to hook people in or taking good pictures for people. Um, and so when I was asking like friends and family what questions they wanted you to ask, one thing that came up was, the idea of age, right?

And like, you know, as we are getting older and um, you know, you put that on your profile, you can't change it. Do you feel like people should be honest about their age? Because I was listening to Patty Stringer and she was saying that you should actually lie about your age, um, and put like knock a couple years off, I think over 35 and

Logan: it's no big.

I've thought about this one a lot and I have a lot of empathy for why people would wanna change their age. Like I work with a lot of one-on-one coaching clients and it can just be so hard. It's like when I went from. You know, 34 to 35, I felt like I got fewer matches or 39 to 40. And it's like, yeah, this is one of the realities of people setting age filters is that you may see fewer people at that age, but from my experience, really talking to people who have been on both sides of this, just really challenging to start from a point, from a lie.

And so I've seen tons of profile pictures that, you know, tons of profiles that are. . I know it says 49, but I'm actually 53, but I'm a really young at heart athletic person, and it's kind of like, they're like, I'm not my biological age, or this and that. So it's like I totally understand where they're coming from, but strategically, I haven't found that it's works really well because I think if you have it on your profile that it's not true, people are turned off.

And then if you start the first date from that perspective, it's just a hard foundation to begin from. Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah. Or do you wait until. Six months in and say, by the way, I know we're in a relationship and also I'm five years older than I

Logan: I know told you. Then you're like, why is your email address a date that like, like ends in a birthdate that's would make you much older than you said?

Like there's like, look at your license. Like I just feel like I would be so upset if I started a relationship with someone and then there was a big reveal. We all have things that we're self-conscious about. We all have tough topics that we need to share with the other person. This is just sort of adding on another one.

But that being said, I do know it's tough and I really do speak to a lot of people who feel like I'm being misjudged by my age, and I, I really think that in the future, like. Not the near future. There's a possibility that like the concept of biological age is different. It's like if a lot of women are freezing their eggs, then their fertility timeline will change.

Or somebody who's really healthy might actually like, have the lifespan that that's different. So I, I feel like the age thing for now is very frustrating, but I wonder if there's some creative solution in the future where there can be like biological age versus real. .

Wendy: Yeah. Let me just wait till this fire truck

Jessica: passes.

Yeah, go for it.

Wendy: Okay. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like starting off a new relationship, like I would have trust issues if someone is like telling me, especially if you're waiting six months. That actually happened to my friend, where like, oh no, you know, it was like a five year difference and like at this point she's already in a relationship with this person, so it's just kind of awkward, you know, where you're like, oh wait, you're five.

Older, like, I don't know. So yeah, personally I would, I would kind of be side eyeing that person cuz like, what the f You know, like totally like that's something you need to be upfront about. Um, okay, so let's talk about this concept of being like super thirsty when dating because it's like there's a fine line.

You know, between like doing the most and, and like, I don't know, approaching it with ease. It's like I, cuz I remember when I was dating, I, there were times where I kind of. I was on both sides, where sometimes like I might have been doing the most and there were times where I was just overwhelmed cause I felt like the other person was just going above and beyond, not in a way that I wanted.

So, you know, like what is the protocol? Are there things that you recommend because, you know, there's like exchanging phone numbers before. The person in real life and like, is that a good practice or like, should you video that person before meeting up? Um, you know, what are some things that maybe you shouldn't bring up on the first date?

You know, like I feel like there's just so much red tape around these things and like everyone has different comfort levels with this stuff. So what are

Logan: your thoughts? . Yeah, I appreciate the question. Let me, let me try to tackle as many of those as I can. So one thing you mentioned was the video chat. So that's definitely something that became way more popular during the Pandemic than it ever was before.

Um, I think before the pandemic, it'd be like, why do you wanna video chat me? Is this like an interview screener? This feels really formal and weird. And then during the pandemic it was like, well, that was the only way people could safely date for a long time. So it became normalized. And now I talk to a bunch of people.

who use it as the first vibe check. So it's like, let me see if you look like your photos. Let me see if I'm attracted to you. Let me hear the sound of your voice. Yeah, let me see if we can carry a conversation. And so I know lots of people who do that. And my personal thoughts on video chats have changed.

I feel like it used to feel too formal and now I'm like, if you feel like it's gonna make you safer or more likely to go on the date than go for it. Um, I was talking to. , gen Z daters the other day for this panel, and one of them was like, I always go on a video date first. The other one was like, I do a 10 or 15 minute, like, meet up, go for a walk and, and, and check it out.

Like even this guy met up with her, like on her way to her manicure, like it, it was pretty quirky. But I think people really are into this idea of like, my time is precious. I am working on my mental health. I don't wanna waste my time. And so let me do this small step to make sure that I actually wanna do the longer date.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah.

Wendy: And what are some like low cost dates? Because that's another concern for people. Like, I'm spending all this money on dating, I'm going on dates every week. Uh, and I think there's, uh, from my experience, there's like, still that expectation that men should pay within like heterosexual relationships.

And so the feedback I've gotten from my guy friends is like, I'm breaking the bank, you know, going on all these dates like they're expecting me to pay. Um, so what are some creative ideas? Like, I love what you said, just taking a walk on, you know, the weight of the nail salon or something like,

Logan: Totally.

Yeah. I've actually been talking to a lot of people about this recently and there's a feeling of like, oh, like if you like the person, you need to spend a lot of money, or you can tell if someone likes you based on the amount that they spend. And I would really like to change the narrative on that and think more about.

Creative dates that help you connect versus expensive dates. I think we have so many cultural myths around like, oh, if the guy likes you, he's gonna pay. Or if she offers to pay, it means she's not interested. Like I think that there's a lot of stories wrapped up around money, and at the end of the day, it's like dating's expensive.

A lot of people are being laid off inflation recession. Like this is just a tough time in some ways. And so can we all just be a little bit more empathetic about it? And so I would say, I like the idea of maybe not splitting the bill 50 50, but saying like, you get this round, I'll get the next one and actually do it like that.

Or pretty early on saying, Hey, you've paid for the last few dates, like I'll plan this one and this one's on me. I think it really shows a lot of character and just understanding that someone's feelings about you are not represented by their money. Somebody could have lots of money and spend it on you and not be that interested.

In terms of cheap dates, I really do like the walking. , there's a lot of evidence that shows that when you sit directly across from somebody, it can be kind of stressful to like, think and make eye contact. Yeah. And that when you can. not be doing that. You can actually have better conversation. It's why I feel like when I'm in the car with someone, I can have better conversations and basically it's like it's easier for your brain to do either listening and talking or making eye contact, and it's harder to do both at the same time.

So I do like the walking or hiking date. I like dates where you're both bringing something to the table like, Hey, let's have a picnic. Like you bring a few of your favorite items. I'll bring a few of mine, we can talk about it and then sit some. I also like. things that don't involve drinking. There's a ton of research that people are doing.

Dry January, a lot more people are sober. Curious. There's just a move away from those two drink minimum first dates. And so thinking about like, what's an activity I love, maybe it's ping pong, maybe it's ice skating, maybe it's going to a comedy show. . Maybe it's playing tennis. Like what is just something that you're passionate about that would be fun.

Maybe it doesn't have to feel like the sexiest thing, but it can get the other person to relax. You can do the activity and then go for a walk and talk about it. And that people will really like if you plan something creative because it helps you stand out. It's kind of like the beige flag thing. Like a woman I talked to you yesterday was like, I just don't wanna go on another dinner date.

Like they're boring and they take a long time. Like I wanna do something else. So like it's more effort. There's really a lot to be gained by creative dates. Yeah.

Jessica: Can you talk about the post date eight, like what that is? Sure. And why you created it.

Logan: Absolutely. Yeah. So a lot of my favorite things that I talk about online and in my book came from direct relationships with my clients, where I'm like, okay, what's the problem here and how do I solve it?

And so I was finding that. Clients were going on dates with a checklist in their mind, and their checklist was like, what school did he go to? How much money does he earn? Um, is he close with his family? Um, You know, is he good looking enough? It's like I have a list in my head that you need to reach, and I'm basically going one by one checking them off.

And this really was not creating good dates. It was creating dates where you're evaluating somebody, you feel like it's a job interview, they're on trial. Like it's, it's really not conducive to. Flirting or to connection. And so then I was like, okay, well there's this research on gratitude journals that shows that if you have to write at the end of the day, five things that you're grateful for, you actually look for those things throughout the day.

So let's say that you are. You know, taking the bus to work and you make the bus, you don't miss it. Five minutes after you make the bus, you forget about it. It's just like a thing that happened. But if you're doing this gratitude journal exercise, you're gonna say, oh, I'll remember that. And then that night you say, missed, uh, you know, made the bus and wasn't late to work.

And so you can train your brain to look for certain things. So the post eight eight is similar. It's attempting to have you focus on certain things during the date because you know you have to do something about it later. So after the date, you ask yourself these eight questions, which include things like, how did I feel in my body around this person?

Did they make me feel energized or de-energized? Did they make me laugh? What part of me did they bring out? And so by focusing instead on those things, you're actually present. You're in the moment being like, I'm having so much fun. Like I feel relaxed, or Wow. Like every time they talk about their job of success, I actually feel really anxious and self-conscious.

And in the end, it makes you choose someone who brings out the side of you. That's great. That makes you feel confident instead of choosing someone who's good on paper, but actually doesn't make you feel good in person. .

Jessica: Yeah, I think that's a brilliant strategy. Um, and I was watching something that you, an interview you did where you were talking about a lot of times the people who were good on paper, they actually, or you think that you're super attractive to, or there's all this chemistry, it's actually anxiety, um, because they're just giving you mixed signals.

Totally. Is that, am I getting that right, ? Yeah.

Logan: It's something I've thought about a lot because. , there's this feeling of, oh, I feel so excited when I'm around them. I feel butterflies, right? We talk about butterflies and we wanna have them, but if you understand that actually those butterflies are anxiety, or those butterflies are alarm bells going off saying, Hey, something doesn't feel right.

It helps you reframe it, and so it's like if you go on a date with someone and they like you and they let you know it, you probably don't have that feeling because you're like, this is straightforward. They are upfront about the fact that they're interested. Whereas if you go on a date with someone and they seem like they're interested, but then they don't text you for a few days, but then they do text you, you start to go, do they like me?

Do they not like me? And it's like in that, Feeling of not knowing. It can feel really exciting. It can feel like drama. You're sitting there waiting. It's more satisfying when they text you because you don't know if it's ever coming. Right. And so it's like, yeah, there is a feeling of excitement, but that excitement is also mixed signals and that it's unclear how this person feels about you or how interested they are.

Yeah.

Jessica: How many dates do you feel like someone should expect to go on before finding the. or D, how many people should they expect to go out with?

Logan: Yeah. You know, it's an interesting one because like I generally don't love the idea of the one. I think it puts a lot of pressure on people and I've seen it backfire.

So one example would be, you know, your friend is dating someone and it's going well for three months, and then they go to visit her family and. , you know, it doesn't go that well or the person doesn't feel that comfortable, something goes wrong and then they're like, oh, must not be the one, and then ends a relationship and starts over.

So it's a feeling of like things with the one should be effortless, easy, passionate sex, great conversation, all these things, and it puts someone in a pedestal that they can never really. Meet, and instead, I like to think there's many different people that you could be with. You could be with someone who's really creative and maybe you have an inspirational life, but you have a lot less money.

There's somebody who's super serious and really smart and makes you think a lot, but is less social. There's just so many combinations of people with your personality that you're gonna have a different life with. And so just thinking like, which path do I wanna choose? They're all valid in their own way versus like, well, there's a one and this person is'.

Yeah, I completely

Wendy: agree. It puts so much pressure on you and on someone else, and like you said, there are. Many options. It's really like, you know what is right at this moment. Because I think timing is also super important when it comes to dating. Like maybe this person might have been, you know, quote year one, five years ago, , and like your priorities have changed, you know, so it's important to like really assess everything that's happening.

Um, For people who are like struggling with confidence for many reasons. Maybe it's like body image or it can maybe be just like being really burned out by dating and feeling like, damn, I'm never gonna find, you know, the person that I wanna be with long term. What are your suggestions? Like, do you just try to fake it and, you know, go into the date?

Like , you know, coming across as confident. Uh, cuz I feel like that stuff can easily leak into dates and then it's kind of off-putting. Um, so what are your thoughts about that? .

Logan: Yeah. I've talked to a lot of people who have this, and in my book I have this framework called the Three Dating Tendencies, different types of daters and what's holding them back.

And they all have unrealistic expectations about dating. So just going through it quickly, there's a romanticize who's similar to the conversation about the one, like there's one person out there for me, I'll know it when I see it, if it's. Must not be my person. There's the maximizer who really wants to find the perfect person.

I'll do my research onto the next one, like who else is out there? And then there's the hesitation who feels like they're not good enough and they need to improve in some number of ways before they can date. And so the confidence one often comes up with the agitator because they're like, I can't date now.

Like, I've gained weight. I can't date now. I need a new job. I don't have enough money. My apartment's messy. Like there's so many stories that we tell ourselves about why we're not good enough, and I can only date once I am quote unquote. a hundred percent ready. But the truth is like there's no such thing as a hundred percent ready.

Like we're all works in progress. We're all figuring it out, and there's so many parts of dating that you can really only learn by dating. You can't sit at home and read a book about attachment theory and suddenly know how to be in a relationship. You have to go out there and say, this type of person makes me feel this way.

I'm really drawn to this. Turns out my type isn't my type at all, and really get better at that. So the first thing I'd say to those people, The only way to get better at dating is by dating. Yeah. The second thing I would say is that we all have things that we're self-conscious about and that we think makes us undateable, but actually they make people feel more comfortable.

So for example, in my newsletter today I was talking about, um, A friend of mine who had struggled with alcoholism and he felt like this made him ineligible for dating. When he talked to people about it, they were turned off and it was really hard for him. But over time, he learned how to talk about it and own his narrative and say, this is a thing in my life.

Here's how I've dealt with it. I'm really proud of myself. And he ended up meeting this woman who had her own struggles with a history of family abuse, and they were both nervous to disclose their thing, but when they talked about it, . I have baggage. You have baggage, our baggage matches. And it's really in those moments of disclosure where somebody feels more safe telling you what's going on with them because you've been real with them.

And so thinking about the fact that you are not only lovable once you fit certain categories, you are lovable because you love yourself and you let somebody else in. Yeah.

Jessica: That's really great advice. Let's talk about ghosting . So. , you posted on your Instagram that 63% of hinge users say that they've ghosted someone, but when you ask how they prefer to be treated when someone isn't interested, 85% said, tell me rejection hurts, but I, sorry, 85% said, tell me rejection hurts, but I'd rather.

Why is there that crazy disconnect, do

Logan: you think? Yeah, I mean, this actually goes back to your first question around the behavioral science thing. It's like, okay, if you know that it's better to not be ghosted and that it feels better when somebody just tells you the truth, why wouldn't you also. Take that behavior when you're the one rejecting someone.

But it's like in the moment we avoid it because we think it's gonna be awkward. I don't want a confrontation. I don't wanna have to give them feedback. Uh, let me just do the slow fade and hopefully they'll figure it out. And so it's like we know the right thing to do, but we often don't do it. And so with ghosting, I've done tons of research on this.

I'm really interested in the topic, and it's just a feeling of, in a digital world where you don't have to see someone's face and have empathy for them, it can be pretty easy to just say, all right, I'm not gonna respond. And eventually they'll get the picture. But it's really cruel to people because they might be sitting at home for weeks saying, well, I'm not gonna go out cuz maybe he'll pack.

Uh, pop back up on the scene or, oh, Betty's really busy at work and you can make excuses for why someone's not reaching out and it's a waste of your time. So people much prefer when you say to them like, Hey, like, great meeting you. You're a really fun person. Like, I enjoyed our time together. Like, I don't see a future together, or I don't see a romantic match here and it's gonna sting in the moment.

Rejection sucks. It doesn't feel good, but now you have a clear. What your future is, which is not with this person, and that helps you move on. And instead, when you ghost, you just leave someone in the sea of ambiguity. Yeah.

Jessica: It's not fair to the other person and it probably will make you feel better about yourself, which is being honest and sitting in the discomfort of being honest and, and I think, like you're saying, most people are gonna be fine with it, especially if you tell them early on.

And don't lead them on. I mean, people don't wanna waste their

Logan: time. Like, imagine if you applied for a. and they just never got back to you. And you'd be like, well, do I have this job? Maybe in a month I'm gonna find out. . Like, it's much better to just say like, Hey, we went with another candidate. It's like, okay, it sucks.

I didn't get that job, but you can move on. Like I've just seen people, like a friend of mine has been applying for jobs for a year and they just wait so many months to tell her, and I think it, it really weighs on her. It's like, guys, stop ghosting my friend. Like please tell her if she has the job or not.

Wendy: Oh yeah. Or what drives me crazy is like when the date goes so well, you think and they're like making plans for future dates, , right? They're like, wow, I could really see us doing this, that, and the third. And then they go soon and you're like, what the fuck? Totally. Yeah. It's

Logan: really confusing and horrible.

Yeah.

Jessica: A real quick, Wendy, sorry, I misread what you said. So I think we should do the fire. Now, and that's the last thing. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Sorry. Logan . We were just trying to, I'm all, we're like going through questions. We're

Wendy: gonna end it with the fire round.

Jessica: Yeah, I think fire round and then just wrapping up.

Oh,

Wendy: okay. All right. Sounds good.

Jessica: Okay. So Logan, we're gonna do a fire round. These are

Wendy: questions, can I just ask one more question? Sorry. Yeah, yeah. We're at 30 minutes, so I think we're okay. Um, cuz I wanna talk about like, approaching people in real life. So let me. I'll start

Logan: here. Josh and I don't, I just, I'm, I, I, I'm on uh, Pacific time, but I don't have to be anywhere till 11.

I'm all yours. Whatever

Wendy: you want. Oh, thank you. Okay. Yeah, we'll finish in time though, but we have, we have some flexibility. Great. So, I know this conversation is about online dating, but you know, some people like to, with the old school way and just. Go up to people. It, it's funny because now I feel like it gives so many people, including myself, so much anxiety because of, you know, how online dating has really taken off.

Whereas before, you know, it was just, I, I think it was a little easier before it was more normal to just like approach people. Um, so do you recommend that, you know, if you see someone or like, I don't know, what are some strategies for being like, hey, starting a conversation with someone in, in real. .

Logan: Oh, I love this question and I think it's such an important topic.

It kind of goes back to what we were talking at the beginning about like people are feeling frustrated with online dating, what should they do? And I was like, it's part of your regimen. Like you have the apps, you are going on dates. That's part of getting out there. But I also think in addition, you should be focusing on meeting people in real life too.

And so I have a couple suggestions for this. One is to just do it more often, so when you're waiting in line at a coffee shop. Barista's really slow. Instead of looking at your phone, say to the person next to you, like, oh, um, what's something that's not awkward? Like you could just say, oh, like, have they called my name yet?

Or something like this, or, have you ever tried this thing on there? Just like say like, What are you reading on your phone? And even if the goal isn't to get their number, you're not attracted to them. It could be like somebody totally that you're not interested in. It's practicing talking to strangers.

And so a friend of mine, um, came to my dating coaching class called Propel and led a session on flirting. And his whole thing is a b f, always be flirting. and it's really like live in the world in a way where you're constantly interacting with people and you're saying, Hey, I love that pin. That's so great.

Or where did you get your jacket? Or, um, you know, thanks for holding the door for me and just getting into conversations with people. Because if you only do it when you're extremely attracted to someone, you're probably gonna be awkward and not know how to do it. Yeah. Right. But if you just become that person that does talk to strangers, Scary and awkward as that may hear, may sound when you're listening to it right now.

Then when there is somebody that you're interested in, you have that skill built up, and so the first thing is A B, F, always be flirting. The second thing is getting into conversations without a goal. So instead of saying, this was only successful if I got their number, it's this was successful because I talked to someone.

Yeah. The third thing is really putting yourself in environments where you're likely to meet. . So in my book I talk about this events decision matrix, and it's basically a fancy way of saying you wanna go to events where you're likely to have fun because that's gonna bring out a good side of you. People that like the same thing will be there.

and you should go to events where people are likely to interact. So if you love movies, you might wanna go to a movie marathon, but people don't really talk at a movie theater. Um, whereas if you love biking and there's a fixing your bike workshop, that's a great one because people will be talking at their table and they'll be interacting.

And so really thinking what are environments where people are going to wanna talk to each other and where I'm likely to meet the kind of person that I'm interested. .

Jessica: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Oh, it's just so terrifying. to talk to someone. Like even for me, even complimenting someone not in a flirty way, just like, oh girl, I love your shoes.

I get so scared. I don't know why. It's the anxiety where I'm like, oh God, they're gonna be annoyed. Or, but I think, yeah, just practicing is what I need to do.

Logan: I agree with you. I actually am like, why is giving a compliment to someone so scary? And it's something Right, that I've been thinking. . Yeah. Okay.

We're

Jessica: gonna do a fire round to wrap things up, these are questions, um, that we got from friends and family. I'm gonna set my timer for five minutes.

Logan: set timer for five minutes, , so that we put the pressure on .

Wendy: I know. I'm feeling anxious for you. Love it. I know.

Jessica: Okay, I'm just gonna jump right in. What are two to three good icebreaker questions Once you've matched with someone that aren't?

Logan: Oh, great. Okay. So this is like talking on the app? Yes.

Eh,

Wendy: I'm kidding. .

Jessica: Okay. Sorry. What's, what's maybe two or threes a lot. What's

Logan: one? One? Yeah. Okay. Love it. I'm just thinking about what is a. . Yeah. I think the reason I'm hesitating is that I think it's really hard to have these go-to questions because they just do sound cheesy. So like I'm going through questions in my head.

I've heard a million of them. It's like, what is something about yourself at this age that your 16 year old self would be surprised by? Like, what is something that keeps you up at night? It's like all of these feel really cheesy and I. Because they're not organic, and so the conversations that feel best are the ones that just flow.

And so it's something like, oh, the craziest thing just happened. Like my manager just walked by my desk and said this. Or Last night I had a debate with my friend about this. What do you think it's like. . When you talk to your friends, you don't like send them an icebreaker. You're just constantly in conversation.

And so people really prefer those conversations that feel more natural, and so share something about your life, comment on something about their profile, and try to get into a natural conversation. Those icebreaker questions just do end up feeling like cheesy and like you're asking them to everyone.

Yeah.

Jessica: I feel like when you go to their profile, it's just the first thing that pops into your. for me. And then when you do that more, it just becomes very easy to see something and be like, oh, I'm gonna comment on that.

Logan: Okay. Yeah, and I think it's especially good to comment, oh, sorry, maybe I'm not doing the little No, go ahead.

Go ahead, . I was gonna say, it's especially good to comment on something that's not obvious. So if somebody's like, I'm obsessed with superhero movies. The most obvious thing would be to say, what's your favorite superhero? Right? It's like everyone's gonna say that, but if you could be like, okay, gut reaction.

You know, spider-Man and Superman are in the grocery store and they're competing for this. Like, who would win? Like that's outlandish, but at least they haven't been asked that before. Really try to think about what something that they haven't been asked a million times, because that's more likely to lead to an interesting conversation.

And

Jessica: we are halfway in. Okay. , that was really good info. Um, what do you do if you swipe past coworkers or someone you know, in a professional setting and you're mortified? This happened to me with a

Logan: patient. Yeah. I would just say in that situation it's like, . Maybe they've seen you, maybe they haven't. I don't think you need to address it.

I think it's much more awkward if it's like your friend's girlfriend or your friend's boyfriend, but it's like, Hey, like we live in a world where most people are meeting their partners through online dating. This is a reality situation. And so I would just say like, so I passed them and don't feel like you need to bring it up.

Jessica: my patient became a stalker. But that's a whole other story. Oh no. Um, yeah. How many back and forth messages do you, uh, suggest sending before you set a date to meet up?

Logan: Yeah. We've done research on this at Hinge, and it's not necessarily the number of messages, but it's like around the three to five day mark is a good time to say, Hey, let's plan a date.

Wendy, did you

Jessica: wanna take the rest of them?

Wendy: Sure. Lemme just. or do you want me to do it? No, no, I can do it. I'm just trying to, okay. What if the person wants to keep texting even after you're saying you don't wanna be

Logan: pimped? I have some different strategies for getting off the texting or off the app and onto a date.

So it might be something like they start to tell you a story and you're like, wait, wait, wait. I really wanna hear the end of that. Tell that to me in person. Or I wanna see if you're, if we have as much chemistry in person as we do on texting and really like, Let them know in increasingly less subtle ways that you wanna move off it.

And then if after a while you get a sense that they don't wanna do that, I would move on. Because there really are people out there that just wanna text or don't have time to commit or just want somebody to keep them company and like that's a waste of your time. So at a certain point, you should just call it.

Wendy: Okay. What if, as New York would say, you want your eggs cracked and you want your name dropped, , you wanna get married, you wanna have kids, but you don't wanna scare that person off. At what point do you let them know?

Logan: Yeah, this one's tough because there's always a feeling of, oh my God, I'm coming on too strong.

But the more that I talk to people about this, the more that people are. what they call dating, like a C E O, like asking from what they want from the beginning. And it doesn't have to feel demanding or desperate. It can sound like this. Like, Hey, I've been dating for a while. I've had my fun ups and downs, you know?

I really know that I would like to get married and have kids eventually. What about you? What are you looking for? It's not like, Listen, do you wanna be my husband? If not, leave the restaurant right now. . Like, it's not ridiculous. It's it's self-awareness and it's giving the person a chance to share. And you wanna create it in a way where the person might respond by saying, oh, I just got out of a big relationship, so I just wanna have fun right now.

Like, maybe you're disappointed, but at least you know where they are and you're not gonna waste more time. So it's like take the risk of sharing earlier, because ultimately it's better to share more and have more data earlier on so you can decide, is this somebody that I wanna. , super helpful.

Jessica: Last fire round, what are your thoughts on settling?

I know you have, um, I've heard you talk about this before. .

Logan: Yeah, I think settling is such a tough word. Like nobody ever wants to go at bed at night being like, this is fine. I settled. Like I think it makes people feel terrible and like they don't deserve more. I'm much more into the idea of compromise on things that don't matter.

So compromise on something like height, maybe you think you need six foot, like actually what's the difference between that and five 10? Like it doesn't change the person's personality. Um, And then double down on the things that really do matter. So make your list of what you think you care about. And a lot of them are probably just nice to haves.

And instead, focus on things like kindness, loyalty, how the person makes you feel. So compromise on the things that don't matter and double down on the things that really do. I love that.

Wendy: Um, okay. Jess, are we asking another question or are we wrapping

Jessica: up? No, I think just the one last like words of advice or like that kind of next step I'll ask it.

So in wrapping, for people who are feeling encouraged and they're like, what is the next step I should take if I'm looking for meat and somebody online, what do

Logan: you recommend? ? Yeah, I'll, I'll say two. So one is making your profile better. Like your profile makes a huge difference. If you have new pictures, it changes how people interact with you.

You get into different conversations. And the second one is really looking back at your own habits and understanding what you've been doing. So maybe saying, wow, like the last 10 people I've gone out with, I've all met them in person. I should really invest more time in meeting people in person, cuz these are the people I tend to date or.

I've been rejecting so many people for these reasons. Maybe I should be a little bit more easygoing about who I go on a first date with. So doing sort of a relationship audit and looking back and understanding your pattern so that you can make changes in the future because you don't wanna just keep doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results.

Right.

Wendy: Love this. This conversation has been so helpful. I wish I had it when I was amazing. Actively dating. Uh, but yeah, I think our listeners are gonna, are gonna find it really useful. And for people who want to, you know, stay up to date with all this great information that you're putting out, how can they find you?

Logan: Yeah, so they can find me on my website, logan yuri.com, and I send out a weekly newsletter, Logan's Love letter that they can sign up for there. Love that. I also teach a course on dating and I'm making a profile called Propel, and all the info is on my website, Logan yuri.com/propel. And they can either sign up or join the wait list for the next one, and then of course they can follow me on Instagram and Twitter and all the places on all the places at Logan.

Amazing.

Wendy: Yay. Thank you. That

Jessica: was great. Thanks for having me. That was so, oh my God, you're so, um, I'm gonna stop.